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Not surprising.
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View this Thread in Original format
| Shakka |
| quote: | By Robert Hutton
May 13 (Bloomberg) -- U.K. Defence Minister Adam Ingram said
pictures apparently showing British troops torturing an Iraqi
captive weren't taken in Iraq, according to a Royal Military
Police investigation.
The pictures, which showed soldiers urinating on and hitting a
man in a T-shirt with an Iraqi flag, were published by the London-
based Daily Mirror two weeks ago, after the U.S. television network
CBS showed photos of U.S. troops torturing Iraqis.
A U.K. pictures ``were categorically not taken in Iraq,''
Ingram told lawmakers in the British Parliament. ``The truck in
which the photographs were taken was never in Iraq.''
Polls show charges that British and U.S. troops were involved
in torture have hurt the approval ratings of U.K. Prime Minister
Tony Blair and President George W. Bush. The troops were sent to
Iraq last year to oust Saddam Hussein and help establish a
democratic government.
Some lawmakers called for the prosecution of Piers Morgan,
editor of the Daily Mirror. Alastair Campbell, Blair's former
spokesman, said yesterday that if the pictures were fake, Morgan
would have to resign.
No Comment
The Mirror, owned by Trinity Mirror Plc, and Morgan didn't
immediately comment.
Ingram said a military police investigation of the pictures
was continuing. Details of evidence that they were faked was
withheld because those involved in taking the photos may face
charges, he said.
He described the pictures as ``dangerous'' to the welfare of
British troops in Iraq. The photos were similar to ones showing
U.S. guards at the Abu Ghraib detention center outside Baghdad
abusing prisoners.
A poll by YouGov Ltd. suggested last weekend that the ruling
Labour Party's support has slipped below the opposition
Conservative Party.
The YouGov Ltd. poll for the Mail on Sunday showed 40
percent of voters support the Conservatives, compared with 36
percent for Labour. The poll, which has a margin of error of 2
percentage points, suggested Blair would fail to win a majority
in Parliament if a general election were held now, though
Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown could command a 77-seat
advantage in the 659-seat House of Commons.
In the U.S., support for Bush's handling of Iraq fell to 42
percent in a Gallup Organization poll May 2-4 from 48 percent in
April and 61 percent in January. The nationwide poll of 1,000
adults had a margin of error of 3 percentage points. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
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Yeah, that isin't surprising, considering that's what they originally speculated.
In other news:
| quote: | U.S. military opens investigation into alleged abuse of prisoner in eastern Afghanistan
By Stephen Graham, Associated Press, 5/12/2004 09:45
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) The U.S. military has opened an investigation into allegations that an Afghan police officer was stripped naked, beaten and photographed at a U.S. base in Afghanistan, officials said Wednesday.
The alleged abuse occurred in August 2003 at the American base in the eastern town of Gardez, 60 miles south of the capital, Kabul, according to a statement by the U.S. Embassy in Kabul. ''The U.S. military has launched an immediate investigation,'' the statement said, adding that U.S. officials had learned of the allegations from the media.
Lt. Col. Tucker Mansager, a military spokesman, said the case was only brought to the military's attention on Tuesday and it was being investigated by the army's Criminal Investigation Department.
He would not discuss details, saying the military wanted the investigation to be conducted in a ''totally impartial manner.''
The New York Times quoted the former police colonel, Sayed Nabi Siddiqui, 47, as saying he was subjected to sexual abuse, taunting and sleep deprivation.
''To the best of our knowledge this is the first time anyone in the military chain of command or the United States Embassy has heard of this alleged mistreatment,'' U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said in the statement.
''We are not aware of the existence of any photos of the alleged incident,'' he added.
Ahmed Zia Langari, a member of the Afghan Human Rights Commission, which has been involved in Siddiqui's case, said it has informed the United Nations of 44 total complaints of ill-treatment at the hands of U.S. forces. But he said none of the others involved allegations of torture or physical abuse.
Langari said the commission brought Siddiqui's case to the attention of the United Nations last August and requested that the world body help set up a meeting with coalition forces. Such a meeting has not yet taken place, he said.
The commission has requested access to the U.S. jail at Bagram, the main U.S. base north of Kabul, and other holding facilities, but the military has so far refused, Langari said.
Lt. Gen. David Barno, the top U.S. general in Afghanistan, had rejected the request on Tuesday, saying monitoring by the International Committee of the Red Cross was sufficient. But Mansager said it was ''being mulled over.''
Photographs of Iraqi prisoners being abused by U.S. soldiers have angered many in Afghanistan and raised fears the same may have happened in Afghanistan, Langari said.
''If this is proved then it is the duty of the coalition forces to deal with the perpetrators,'' Langari told The Associated Press. Khalilzad said he was confident the military's investigation would be thorough and would lead to ''appropriate action'' if the allegations are proven.
Barno said Tuesday that the military had made ''very significant changes'' to the way it handles prisoners in Afghanistan after alleged abuse, including the deaths of three prisoners.
He said the military had investigated ''challenges and problems'' at outlying bases and that it decided to transfer suspects to the main holding facility at Bagram more quickly.
Barno made no mention of Gardez or the allegations made by the police officer.
The New York Times quoted Siddiqui as saying he was wrongly detained on July 15 after he reported police corruption and that someone then accused him of being a member of the Taliban. He said he was held for about 40 days at three different U.S. bases: at Gardez, Kandahar in southern Afghanistan, and Bagram.
He described being humiliated repeatedly during his detention in all three places.
Siddiqui told the Times that for the 12 days he was in Kandahar, detainees were packed into wire cages and forced to use a bucket as a toilet in front of other detainees.
He also said soldiers threw stones and bottles at detainees.
''It was like stoning monkeys at the zoo,'' he told the New York Times. ''They brought buckets of stones and they were laughing as they did it.''
The U.S. military opened a formal investigation into the deaths of two Afghans at Bagram's closely guarded jail in December 2002, but says it has had trouble gathering evidence and has yet to release results.
Military autopsies found that both men died of blunt force injuries.
Afghan government officials have expressed concern that any sign of widespread abuse could turn ordinary Afghans against the presence of foreign soldiers, but they remain supportive of the presence of 20,000 U.S.-led troops here.
A third Afghan died last June at a holding facility in eastern Kunar province.
A U.S. intelligence official said last week that the CIA inspector general is investigating that death because it involved an independent contractor working for the agency.
The U.S. military views Taliban and al-Qaida prisoners as ''unlawful combatants,'' and has held hundreds captured in the war that ousted the Taliban in late 2001 for more than two years without formal charge or access to lawyers.
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/133...estigati:.shtml |
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| Shakka |
| I saw that this morning but I haven't had a chance to read through the details yet. |
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| Spin Doctor |
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/me...sp?story=520400
| quote: | The truck, the rifle, the laces: the MoD puts forward its evidence
By Jonathan Brown
12 May 2004
There is growing confidence within the Ministry of Defence that the Daily Mirror pictures allegedly showing British troops torturing captured Iraqis are an elaborate hoax. But the newspaper's editor Piers Morgan is insisting he will not accept they are faked until "incontrovertible evidence is produced to the contrary". These are the key areas of dispute:
THE TRUCK: The interior of the vehicle in which the prisoner is allegedly being urinated on has side slats typical of a Bedford MK4. Its tailgate and cover are also more typical of the Bedford than the four-ton Leyland DAFs used to transport the Queen's Lancashire Regiment and their supplies in Iraq. There is no sign of sand or dirt inside the truck.
The Mirror insists that the truck was used in Iraq. A witness called Soldier C, who claims to have seen four incidents of violence involving the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, says he saw a Bedford truck at Basra Palace.
THE RIFLE: The weapon used in the alleged torture pictures is a pristine Mark I version of the SA80 - a predominately plastic rifle that scratches easily when used in the field. Troops are currently issued with the Mark II.
Defence experts have also highlighted the missing serial number on the rifle's foregrip and the absence of an identifying yellow armoury number. The barrel has also been left uncovered - forbidden in desert conditions. There is no "press to talk" switch allowing soldiers to use a headset while on patrol or a carrying sling. The Mirror says the pictures would need to be clearer to accurately gauge the exact weapon.
THE UNIFORM: The soldiers appear too clean to have been in a live desert conflict zone, while their unit badges are missing as are their wristwatches. In contravention of Army rules the men's webbing ammunition pouches are empty and hanging open. They are wearing non-standard issue floppy hats and their combat trousers are tucked into their boots when they would normally be secured with elastic. The Mirror's Soldier C says he wore a floppy hat throughout his tour of Iraq duty. The MoD has confirmed that floppy hats were issued and soldiers were allowed to wear what they wanted. The Mirror points out that soldiers are meant to wear clean uniforms. Webbing is often worn loose, says Soldier C.
THE BOOTS: The soldiers' boots are laced criss-cross. British soldiers always use the straight-laced method.
But Soldier C says he has never been told which way to lace his boots - it is a matter of personal choice.
THE PRISONER: He is upright and his legs are wide apart - experts say torture prisoners normally adopt the foetal position. There is also no evidence of sweating or blood. The prisoner's T-shirt bears a Syrian flag - inconsistent with the claim he is a Shia from Basra. He is also wearing underpants - not typical for Iraqis. On his head is a hessian sack which allows light to penetrate.
The Mirror insists that the T-shirts were common in Basra and that hessian sacks were used to carry sand so would have been readily available.
THE PHOTOGRAPHS: The pictures are in black and white while a typical squaddie would be more likely to use colour film. The depth of field is too great for a "happy snappy" camera and the pictures are of an unusually high definition. The images appear static and posed.
The Mirror claims the soldier may have been pressing down with his boot rather than kicking. If he was kicking, then the victim is static because he cannot see the incoming blow. The newspaper also claims soldiers are hiding their faces for fear of official censure. |
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| smokeape |
All kinda pales in comparison to al-Queada brazenly decapitating prisoners on video now doesn't it?
:whip:
[[[smoke]]] |
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| DaveSZ |
I'm a photographer, and after I looked closely at those Mirror photos, I also thought they looked faked or staged.
The supposed prisoner wearing the clean, white shirt with the Iraqi flag is really what tipped it off for me. The lighting is also suspect.
Obviously the US photos are the real deal though. |
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| smokeape |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaveSZ
I'm a photographer, and after I looked closely at those Mirror photos, I also thought they looked faked or staged.
The supposed prisoner wearing the clean, white shirt with the Iraqi flag is really what tipped it off for me. The lighting is also suspect.
Obviously the US photos are the real deal though. |
What're you talking about? British hijinks with prisoners? Nicholas Berg was executed. Was there a problem with lighting there?
:whip:
[[[smoke]]] |
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| Spin Doctor |
| quote: | Originally posted by smokeape
What're you talking about? British hijinks with prisoners? Nicholas Berg was executed. Was there a problem with lighting there?
:whip:
[[[smoke]]] |
Please, either contribute something useful or STFU and piss off!
Yes, in the scheme of things a staged photo does pale in comparison to an execution, but that doesn’t mean this should be forgotten or swept under the carpet. This is very important, and has massive implications, not just for the Brit soldiers in Iraq, but also freedom of speech/freedom of the press etc, something that they tried to hoodwink us into believing this war was for. :rolleyes: |
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| surferfb |
I am not defending the horrible beheading, but we did practically the same thing in Abu Ghraib. Espically since Senators and Congressmen are reporting the pictures show the following:
Nelson said one poor-quality video appeared to show Iraqi prisoners about to be sodomized
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004May12.html
And he said he saw what appeared to be "some wounds from dogs.
Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.), the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said what most shocked her was a video clip of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall.
And a prisoner:
"I was only afraid that they would take me back to the torture room," he said. "I would prefer to be dead."
"Then they started to beat me," he said. He said he was struck with a broomstick, first on his hands, then on his arms, his shoulders and his stomach. Then he fell to the ground. One soldier, who prisoners called "the crazy soldier" because he seemed unbalanced, urinated on him, he claimed. Then they threw cold water on him. He was taken back to his cell.
The next day, he said, he was taken to a room where he said the sergeant named Ivan was sitting in a plastic chair. "He told me his famous sentence, which has always stayed in my ears," said Mr. Aboud, who understands some English and speaks it a little. "He said, `If you do not confess, I will have my soldiers rape you.' "
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/14/i...ml?pagewanted=2
(note this article has accounts of soldiers helping the prisoners, like I'm sure the vast majority of our soldiers would do, it's worth reading)
Also note that prisoners have died there and at Guantanmo and they are being investigated as homicides (I can't find the link at the moment) |
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| Yoepus |
there is so much misinformation around this story it is ridicilous.
The Globe also admitted to publishing forged pictures from a porn site under the assumption they were from the US run prison in Iraq.
What is happening with this issue whether intentional or not is pure politicing. It has evolved beyoned the actuall abuse to a crusade against the USA and its allies.
It is around this cry that the opponents of the west now rally in an effort to bring about its failure through a defeat in Iraq.
Its real simple guys. The USA has some whackos that didn't follow procedures - it might even by systematic - but the military is/was aware of the problem and is/has been taking steps to correct this problem. Altough 'slow' the reaction from the insitutions has been appropriate in this case.
Please tell me how many Iraqis are being totured in US jails today? Because that number is nil if not very close to it. That should be testemant enough.
All those interested in exposing the pictures, videos, etc, are those interested in defeating the west and the ideals it repersents, whether they realize they are doing that or not.
Their has only been one paper in the USA, the Dallas Morning Star that has published a picture of Berg's beheading (his severed head was blackened out with a box ... much as the Iraqi's dicks and asses were blurred out in those offensive pictures), why have we not seen more of this?
Unlike the USA abuse of Iraqis, beheadings of Jews/Americans/Westeners by fanatical Arabs has not one more inkling to stop then it had before a week. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Its real simple guys. The USA has some whackos that didn't follow procedures - it might even by systematic - but the military is/was aware of the problem and is/has been taking steps to correct this problem. Altough 'slow' the reaction from the insitutions has been appropriate in this case. |
slow is really an underexaggeration. i mean, even though they knew about it, it didn't really happen anything until the media got the pics...so what they care about is PR rather than the prisoners, which makes me sick.
| quote: | | All those interested in exposing the pictures, videos, etc, are those interested in defeating the west and the ideals it repersents, whether they realize they are doing that or not. |
right, using that logic, al-jazera would be exposing pictures/videos of americans getting killed, for the purpose to defeating the arab world. :rolleyes: |
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| Dopey |
the torture, golden showers, and the berg thing are all horrible. first off, berg had nothing to do with iraq, that was quida right? so the prisoner thing cant be related to it smokingape. no matter what reason AQ gives.
the thing i would consider in the torture thing is...these were soldiers that obviously had to morals. similar to saddam. i think saddam did a lot worse though. he is being indicted. so let these immoral GIs be indicted to and move on. torturing random people is obviously not the goal of most of the men there. |
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