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Fahrenheit 9/11 >> Michael Moore's new movie out June 25th (pg. 5)
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| trunks1022 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MezzicanTrancEr
WORD man. You're definately not alone! Aside from Moore's agenda, is it me or does this guy eat too much? hehe jk
No but seriously, I live with two other roomates whom are VERY liberal and HATE Bush, (hey I described 99% of TA, hehe). Anyway, one of them has a Kerry sticker on his car. I have a Bush one but wouldn't dare put it on my brand new car for fear of being keyed!
Most people don't even care anymore about what's good for the country. Many people in this country hate Bush and that's fine, but few can actually tell you why. It is these people who will see Moore's film and base a decision on who runs our country based on one man's skewed view of things. People say that Bush brings this country down with his words and actions. I personally don't believe this. However, if it is true, then how is something like Michael Moore's Film going to help us ban together as a country and get through our current situation. If many feel the answer is getting Bush out of office, FINE. But Michael Moore has no idea the damage he'll do to our country's morale with this film. I think he could have done a movie on our country's determination to get through rough times...but why? It just doesn't sound interesting enough and what's more, no one would ever PAY to see a movie like that! I too believe people in this country are too lazy to look up the facts and instead rely on Satruday Night Live, the Daily Show or dare I say Michael Moore for "the facts" about our current administration. I for one, will watch the movie because i'm not afraid of what some left wing extremist has to say...because as with any extremists, they're just that, extreme.
I would like to add that it really sucks that we live in a country now where someone will get flamed for what they believe...I mention that because I know someone is going to jump on me fast and in a not so nice way. I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen. It's pretty ironic it'll be from a "open-minded liberal". ;)
:::edit::: actually i'm reading most of the posts on here and I'm pleasantly surprised...everyones being civil! hehe :::edit::::
I stress the quotations because thank goodness most TA's here are respectful. I opted out on my two cents and decided to give you about a dollar a change worth of my opinion, :) |
i always prefer rational, logical discussions. u'll always find on both sides people who're impassioned in their beliefs but can't tell u why. unfortunately having discussions with them goes nowhere and people's feelings get hurt. we're pretty tame here, unless people really go off their rocker... remember jamezny anyway? :) |
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| DaveSZ |
IMO it would be stupid for Moore to fabricate and distort since there will be such intense scrutiny of his film.
That's not to say his film is entirely accurate however.
Here is what a journalist who covered the 9/11 commission hearings thought of his film:
http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=525560.html
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Fact-checking Moore's political broadside
Philip Shenon/NYT The New York Times
Friday, June 18, 2004
Viewer finds Moore 'on firm ground'
LOS ANGELES
Michael Moore is not coy about his hopes for "Fahrenheit 9/11," his blistering documentary attack on President George W. Bush and the war in Iraq. He wants it to be remembered as the first big-audience, election-year film that helped unseat a president.
"And it's not just a hope," the Oscar-winning filmmaker said in a phone interview last week, describing focus groups in Michigan in April at which, after seeing the movie, previously undecided voters expressed eagerness to defeat Bush.
"We found that if you entered the theater on the fence, you fell off it somewhere during those two hours," he said. "It ignites a fire in people who had given up." The movie's indictment of Bush is nothing if not sprawling. Moore suggests that Bush and his administration jeopardized national security in an effort to placate Bush family cronies in Saudi Arabia, that the White House helped members of Osama bin Laden's family to flee the United States after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and that the administration manipulated terrorism alert levels to scare Americans into supporting the invasion of Iraq.
Moore's previous films generated a cottage industry of conservative commentators eager to prove sloppiness and exaggeration in his films; a handful of mainstream critics have also found flaws. But if "Fahrenheit 9/11" attracts the audience Moore and his distributors are predicting, Moore may face an onslaught of fact-checking unlike anything he - or any other documentary filmmaker - has ever experienced. After all, White House officials and the Bush family began impugning the film even before any of them had seen it.
So how will Moore's movie stand up under close examination? Is the film's depiction of Bush as a lazy and duplicitous leader, blinded by his family's financial ties to Arab moneymen and the Saudi Arabian royal family, true to fact? Moore and his distributors refused to circulate copies of the film and its script before the film's release on Friday; his production team said recently there was no final script because the film was still undergoing minor editing - for clarity, they said, not accuracy.
After a year spent covering the U.S. commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, I was recently allowed to attend a Hollywood screening. Based on that single viewing, and after separating out what is clearly presented as Moore's opinion from what is stated as fact, it seems safe to say that central assertions of fact in "Fahrenheit 9/11" are supported by the public record.
Moore is on firm ground in arguing that the Bushes, like many prominent Texas families with oil interests, have profited handsomely from their relationships with prominent Saudis, including members of the royal family and of the large and fabulously wealthy bin Laden clan, which has insisted it long ago disowned Osama.
Moore spends several minutes in the film documenting ties between the president and James Bath, a financial adviser to a prominent member of the bin Laden family who was an original investor in Bush's Arbusto energy company and who served with the future president in the Air National Guard in the early 1970s. The Bath friendship, which indirectly links Bush to the family of the world's most notorious terrorist, has been well documented.
Moore charges that Bush and his aides paid too little attention to warnings in the summer of 2001 that Al Qaeda was about to attack, including a detailed Aug. 6, 2001, CIA briefing that warned of terrorism within the United States. In its final report next month, the Sept. 11 commission can be expected to offer support to this assertion. Moore says that instead of focusing on Al Qaeda, the president spent 42 percent of his first eight months in office on vacation; the figure came not from a conspiracy-hungry Web site but from a calculation by The Washington Post. The most valid criticisms of the film are likely to involve the artful way that Moore connects the facts, and whether he has left out others that might undermine his scalding attack. A great many statistics fly by in the movie - like assertions that 6 percent to 7 percent of America is owned by Saudi Arabians, and that Saudi companies have paid more than $1.4 billion to Bush family interests. Moore and his team say they have news reports and other evidence to back up the numbers, and that it will be posted on his site, www.michaelmoore.com, after the release of the documentary. Moore may also be criticized for the way he portrays the evacuation of the extended bin Laden family from the United States after Sept. 11. As the Sept. 11 commission has found, the Saudi government was able to pull strings at senior levels of the Bush administration to help the bin Ladens leave the United States. But while the film clearly suggests that the flights occurred at a time when all air traffic was grounded immediately after the attacks ("Even Ricky Martin couldn't fly," Moore says over video of the singer wandering in an airport lobby), the Sept. 11 commission said in a report this April that there was "no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace," and that the FBI had concluded that no one aboard the flights was involved in Sept. 11.
Moore defended the scene, saying his goal was to show how the White House was eager to bend and break the rules for Saudi friends, in this case the extended family of the terrorist who had just brought down the twin towers of the World Trade Center and attacked the Pentagon. And as reporters have found, the White House still refuses to document fully how the flights were arranged. "I don't want to get lost in the forest because of a single tree," Moore said. "The main point I want people to go away with is that these people got special treatment because they were bin Ladens or Saudi royals, and you and I would never have been given that treatment."
Moore is readying for a conservative counterattack, saying he has created a "war room" to offer an instant response to any assault on the film's credibility. He has retained Chris Lehane, a Democratic Party strategist known as a master of the black art of "oppo," or opposition research, used to discredit detractors. He also hired outside fact-checkers, led by a former general counsel of The New Yorker and a veteran member of that magazine's legendary fact-checking team, to vet the film. And he is threatening to go one step further, saying he has consulted with lawyers who can bring defamation suits against anyone who maligns the film or damages his reputation. "Any attempts to libel me will be met by force," Moore said. "The most important thing we have is truth on our side. If they persist in telling lies, knowingly telling a lie with malice, then I'll take them to court."
Joanne Doroshow, a public interest lawyer and filmmaker who shared in a 1993 Oscar for documentaries and who joined the fact-checking effort last month, said, "We have gone through every single word of this film - literally every word - and verified its accuracy." That said, Moore's fact-checkers said they did not view the film as straight reporting. "This is an Op-Ed piece, it's not a news report," said Dev Chatillon, the former general counsel for The New Yorker, adding, "The facts have to be right, yes, but this is an individual's view of current events. And I'm a very firm believer that it is within everybody's right to examine the actions of their government."
Besides, it may turn out that the most talked-about moments in the film are the least impeachable. For the White House, the most devastating segment of "Fahrenheit 9/11" may be the video of a befuddled-looking Bush staying put for nearly seven minutes at a Florida elementary school on the morning of Sept. 11, continuing to read a copy of "My Pet Goat" to schoolchildren even after an aide has told him that a second plane has struck the twin towers.
Bush's slow, hesitant reaction to the disastrous news has never been a secret. But seeing the actual footage, with the minutes ticking by, may prove more damaging to the White House than all the statistics in the world.
The New York Times
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| trancinchink |
| quote: | Originally posted by MezzicanTrancEr
I would like to add that it really sucks that we live in a country now where someone will get flamed for what they believe...I mention that because I know someone is going to jump on me fast and in a not so nice way. I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen. It's pretty ironic it'll be from a "open-minded liberal". ;)
I stress the quotations because thank goodness most TA's here are respectful. I opted out on my two cents and decided to give you about a dollar a change worth of my opinion, :) |
Very keen on predicting the future. oh does it all of a sudden suck now? or has it always sucked? howabout when it sucks to live in a country when someone will get flamed for being a person of color? oh but that only sucks for those stupid minorities. And what about the Morale of this country? Personally I think Americans have to stop being such pussies and actually step up to all the things they've done wrong. There seems to be a consensus that if you don't talk about things, then they'll just go away. So when people like Michael Moore, and even Dave Chappelle talk about sensitive racial issues, problems with the government, people just flame them. And honestly, I am not completely against republicans. i personally just think bush is an idiot. just look at the way he talks. i would not mind any other intelligent republican to take the presidency.
(by the way, i was born here 19 years ago, and even till this day i still get racist remarks from wiseasses. still sucks for me i guess.) |
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| MezzicanTrancEr |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancinchink
Very keen on predicting the future. oh does it all of a sudden suck now? or has it always sucked? howabout when it sucks to live in a country when someone will get flamed for being a person of color? oh but that only sucks for those stupid minorities. And what about the Morale of this country? Personally I think Americans have to stop being such pussies and actually step up to all the things they've done wrong. There seems to be a consensus that if you don't talk about things, then they'll just go away. So when people like Michael Moore, and even Dave Chappelle talk about sensitive racial issues, problems with the government, people just flame them. And honestly, I am not completely against republicans. i personally just think bush is an idiot. just look at the way he talks. i would not mind any other intelligent republican to take the presidency.
(by the way, i was born here 19 years ago, and even till this day i still get racist remarks from wiseasses. still sucks for me i guess.) |
i'm first generation, both my parents were born in Mexico so back off with the "stupid minority" banter. And when you say "AMERICANS" it seems to me that you are exluding yourself, because you said, "THEY have to stop being pussies...", as in everyone else but you. You are American too, right?
Bringing up the morale in this country is much more than, hey look at how big my balls are, nothing gets me down!". I teach elementary in inner-city Baltimore and my students and their parents face a serious deficit in their morale. Would you tell these people to "stop being pussies", step it up themseleves and get it right? I don't think so. Would you also feel it right to make a movie focusing on all reasons many of their kids drop out of school (50% here in Baltimore), and end up in jail, (20% of young African American males)? Of course not because we are AWARE of the problems -what this country lacks is problem solvers. Moore is not a problem solver, and he's not stating anything we don't already know. However, he does have a tendancy, (as i said in my previous post) to skew MANY "truths".
Anyway again, I personally don't think Bush is an idiot. He has lived a life of privledge, true and many things have been handed to him - but how many of our presidents passed have lived the same life? Also, speaking eloquently doesn't mean you're smart and it doesn't mean you're stupid eaither. Some people are GREAT public speakers, and many are not. And don't forget that Bush has his own staff of writers so lets stop with the "look at the way he talks". Instead try to be a little more intelligent in your assessment and look at what he has done while in office and what he has not. You seem to have made up your mind that's he's "dumb" and that's fine. The country seems to be split on that decision. But be a little more informed before you make a comment like that.
* I've had to edit this post a little because my spelling sucks, hope it doesn't mean i'm dumb! ;) |
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| trancinchink |
| yea, and i have looked at what he's done. absolutely nothing and as for the whole "American" thing, i'm pretty sure you can imply that i was talking about the people who run the country, not the common citizens. and for the bringing up morale thing. yes, i think if something is wrong it should be brought up and criticized. thats the difference between the eastern way of thinking and western way of thinking. i can honestly say the way my parents brought me up to criticize and isolate my weaknesses and faults have actually made me stronger. asian parents have been known to be strict, hardworking, and harsh in judgement. that is why so many asians are respectful, successful, intelligent, and hardworking. i'm not saying we're the perfect group of people cuz that is not true, but there must be a reason why when people think of asian, they don't think of "drop out" and "jail". so many of us came here with absolutely nothing (and i really mean nothing), but we built our respect through our actions. |
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| MezzicanTrancEr |
...yes but don't forget that African-Americans have been the most battered minority group in the history of this country, (i.e. slavery). In addition, this country has been setup so that many African-Americans go to school in "inner city" areas and to the worst public schools.
from your boy Michael Moore himself (..and one thing i actually do agree on):
"African Americans have been on the lowest rung of the economic ladder since the day they were beaten and dragged here in chains - and they have never made it off that rung, not for a single damn day. Every other immigrant group who has landed here has been able to advance from the bottom to the middle and upper levels of our society. Even Native Americans, who are among the poorest of the poor, have fewer children living in poverty than African-Americans"
- from "Stupid White Men" pg 62.
You said something about your parents being "strict and hardworking". Sounds like MANY of the parents of the kids I teach - yet somehow their kids STILL can't get ahead...Our schools are set up to ensure that African-American kids in inner city schools fail and I know because I teach in one of these communities. No matter how much we want for our kids, someone higher up prevents us, somehow, someway, from achieving our goals. From biased tests, to promotional standards, to lack of funding, to schools that are left in shambles, to administrative red tape, it's all rigged. My kids are convinced that no one cares about their education, and why should they think otherwise when they see things like this. Unless you went to an inner-city or rural public school with these problems, you have no idea how hard it is to get ahead no matter how much your parents push you. That tells me it's more than how you're brought up. That speaks more about the opportunities you're given, or in this case NOT GIVEN.
...and it's just me but I would NEVER compare the challenges and struggles Mexicans have gone through in this country, with that of African-Americans - I don't think u should either. |
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| Bloodflower |
btw: i think this fits very well here from me....
some random hardcore anti bush add:
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| DaveSZ |
Bush's father's company, The Carlyle Group, an investment firm with ties to defense contractors, just bought out a major cinema chain with many theatres in NY: Loews Cineplex.
Presumably, they are doing this in an effort to stifle movies they disagree with or are damaging to them, such as the global warming movie, and MM's new movie.
Just watch what happens next.
This is fascism in action folks.
This is what Eisenhower warned us about, and he was certainly no hippie liberal.
http://washington.bizjournals.com/w.../21/daily4.html
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>>
Carlyle goes to the movies
Jeff Clabaugh
Staff Reporter
District {of Columbia}-based investment firm The Carlyle Group is one of three investors that have agreed to buy Loews Cineplex Entertainment from Onex Corp. and Oaktree Capital Management for $1.46 billion.
The buyout is being led by Bain Capital, an investment firm started in 1984 by Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney.
....
Carlyle was founded in 1987. Its directors have included former President George Bush, {Colin} Powell, James Baker and former British Prime Minister John Major.
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The Carlyle Group is a defense contractor, or rather an investment company with ties to, and lobbyists working for, defense contractors profiteering handsomely off the war in Iraq. When Poppy Bush dies, Jr. stands to inherit millions or even billions of dollars from his own war.
Since Carlyle is a privately held company, it is not subject to the same regulations as publicly traded companies. This allows them free reign to conduct corrupt business practices under the radar.
Bush's father is still a major shareholder in the company, though he recently quit his position on the board of directors when his ties to the Saudi and Bin Laden families began to come to light.
James Baker, one of the heads of the Carlyle Group and a close friend of the Bush family, is also defending the Saudis against the 9/11 victims' families:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067906/
The Bin Laden family was a major shareholder in the Carlyle Group until only recently.
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MIDEAST TERROR WAR ADDS URGENCY TO CARLYLE GROUP CONTROVERSY
Former President Bush Works for International Investment Firm With Ties To Saudi Arabia
Company Had Bin Laden Family Connections
http://www.judicialwatch.org/1685.shtml
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| quote: |
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/fr...ladensbail.html
Bin Ladens Bail on Carlyle Group
FTW, Oct. 26, 2001, 1700 PDT - The New York Times is today reporting that, "The Saudi family of Osama bin Laden is severing its financial ties with the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm known for its connections to influential Washington political figures, executives who have been briefed on the decision said today." Some of those influential figures include George H.W. Bush and his son, our President.
The Times story indicates that the decision by the bin Ladens was the result of "public controversy" about the familyŐs investments in the nationŐs 11th largest defense contractor. The Carlyle Group employs former President George Bush, who met with the bin Laden family in Saudi Arabia in 1998 and 2000. As a result of explosive increases in the US defense budget the Carlyle Group is facing enormous windfall profits. And there is still strong suspicion that, in spite of mainstream reports indicating otherwise, the family has not severed all ties with the alleged mastermind of the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center.
One of the most detailed investigative reports on bin Laden and Bush business connections was published by FTW just weeks ago. We know that it has received worldwide attention and close scrutiny within the Bush Administration.
The story is at http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/carlyle.html.
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http://baltimorechronicle.com/media3_oct01.shtml
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Republican-controlled Carlyle Group poses serious Ethical Questions for Bush Presidents, but Baltimore Sun ignores it
by Alice Cherbonnier
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AN IMPORTANT TENET of journalism is that you should always ask, “Who benefits?”
In the case of a war, the answers to this question become of paramount importance. Suppose, for example, that profits from military contracting were to go in the pockets of a former U.S. President whose son (and a presumed future heir) is now President? Suppose further that such profits escalate in times of conflict. Wouldn’t this be of concern to the public? Wouldn’t you expect the media to be all over such an important ethical (not to mention moral, and maybe legal) angle?
Though described by the Industry Standard as “the world’s largest private equity firm,” with over $12 billion under management, chances are readers haven’t ever heard of The Carlyle Group. Isn’t that a little odd, considering it is run by a veritable who's who of former Republican political leaders. Former Defense Secretary Frank Carlucci is Carlyle’s chairman and managing director (who, by the way, was college roommate of the current Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld). And that partners in this mammoth venture include former U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker III, George Soros, Fred Malek (George H.W. Bush’s campaign manager, forced to resign when it was revealed he was Nixon’s “Jew counter”), and—presumably—George H.W. Bush?
We say “presumably” because the privately-held Carlyle doesn’t have to reveal information about its partners or investments to the SEC or to anyone else. Our former President is reported to be active in seeking investments for the Carlyle Group from the Asian market, and word is he’s paid between $80,000 to $100,000 per presentation.
All told, Carlyle has about 420 partners all over the globe, from Saudi princes to the former president of the Philippines. Its investments run heavily in the defense sector; they make money from military conflicts and weapons spending. But who in Baltimore knows about it?
A search of the Baltimore Sun’s website reveals no mentions whatsoever of The Carlyle Group, though it’s been around since 1988 and has been involved in numerous buy-outs and buy-ins, sometimes with SEC-regulated companies that have to report these things. Contrast this news blackout with the Washington Post’s 378 mentions, and the New York Times’ 332 hits. Even the Philadelphia Inquirer weighed in with 15 mentions.
Not only have some newspapers and magazines brought The Carlyle Group out of the shadows it prefers, but this enterprise has attracted the attention of The Center for Public Integrity and Judicial Watch, both of which have concerns about the ethical propriety of having high-placed former government officials—trained at taxpayer expense, too—out there reaping over 20% to 40% a year by working their connections. You have to wonder if these former public servants are just simply greedy, or if they’re telling themselves they’re true patriots by doing behind-the-scenes cloak-and-dagger stuff.
This is a big story. We were wondering if, in the wake of current events, we were the only newspaper that was asking that question, “Who benefits?” And then we found that the Wall Street Journal was asking the right questions, too, and we were vastly relieved not to be left hanging out to dry. On Sept. 27, the WSJ published a “Special Report: Aftermath of Terror” with the headline “Bin Laden Family Could Profit From a Jump In Defense Spending Due to Ties to U.S. Bank.” The “bank” is actually The Carlyle Group (and by the way, we peons can’t invest in it, and it sure isn’t taking deposits from the general public). The lead sentence reads: “If the U.S. boosts defense spending in its quest to stop Osama bin Laden’s alleged terrorist activities, there may be one unexpected beneficiary: Mr. bin Laden’s family.” And, though the WSJ curiously did not mention this, another beneficiary may be George H.W. Bush’s family.
Copyright © 2003 The Baltimore Chronicle and The Sentinel. All rights reserved. We invite your comments, criticisms and suggestions.
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These are the folks who are going to be deciding what movies you're allowed to watch from now on:
http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html
George Soros also seems to be a shady character, and I don't trust the man either.
But, he's certainly in the same league as the Bush family in terms of trying to have it both ways.
He's a partner in Carlyle, and also funds Moveon.org to some extent.
Bush's grandfather helped fund the Nazis, and sent his son off to fight on the front lines.
Bush Sr was behind the Iran/Contra scandal to a significant extent, and also funded and armed both Saddam and Osama Bin Laden.
The Bush family talks tough on terrorism, yet defends those who helped empower the 9/11 terrorists - the Saudis. |
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| DaveSZ |
Be sure to watch this Dutch documentary on the CARLYLE Group:
http://www.informationclearinghouse...article3995.htm
(It's mostly in English, and the first part in Dutch has an English transcript)
Warehouse of info about the corruption of the CARLYLE Group:
http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html
The secret flight of Bin Laden and Saudi family members ordered by the BUsh Administration after 9/11 has been confirmed by Tampa Airport officials, and by documents released under the Freedom of Information Act (I'm surprised that law hasn't been repealed yet).
http://www.houseofbush.com/index.php
Don't forget to also read journalist Craig Unger's important book about the BUsh Family/Saudi connection. |
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| mizzuno |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaveSZ
Be sure to watch this Dutch documentary on the CARLYLE Group:
http://www.informationclearinghouse...article3995.htm
(It's mostly in English, and the first part in Dutch has an English transcript)
Warehouse of info about the corruption of the CARLYLE Group:
http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html
The secret flight of Bin Laden and Saudi family members ordered by the BUsh Administration after 9/11 has been confirmed by Tampa Airport officials, and by documents released under the Freedom of Information Act (I'm surprised that law hasn't been repealed yet).
http://www.houseofbush.com/index.php
Don't forget to also read journalist Craig Unger's important book about the BUsh Family/Saudi connection. |
Here try this on for size, Mr Hitchens is a card carrying liberal, he writes for Vanity Fair and has written an article based upon facts, not little exerpts from blatently biased organizations. Mr Hitchens is a scholar not a comedian or filmaker, and while i am not a great fan of his (having such a liberal viewpoint), he at least articulates his point and relies on facts not heresay or in the case of Moore, blatant lies. So do yourself a favor and read some facts, stop looking for what you want to hear. Again this is not coming from a conservative hack. He has written many columns dissing Bush and other right wingers, but he has the credulty to expose lies on both sides of the table. So expand your mind and read this:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
Mizzuno |
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| sandstorm03 |
| maby its because im at work, but the link doesnt work |
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| mizzuno |
| quote: | Originally posted by sandstorm03
maby its because im at work, but the link doesnt work |
Probably...
Mizz |
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