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Whats with this friggin Yugo invasion? (pg. 5)
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| Dr. Z |
| ^ that's disgusting |
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| ShadoWolf |
| quote: | Originally posted by TheVrk
i dont wanna come across the wrong way here - PLEASE dont take it badly....
cause i have MANY serb friends, who i'd die for, believe me,
but we're not all yugos. true this IS canada, so we're all
canadian citizens: which determines our nationality legally.
but our heritage is all distinctly different.
Dr.Z, u can consider yourself anything u'd like, serbian, croatian,
bosnian, or canadian, its not up to me....
i just know that personally, i am croatian, which is DISTINCTLY
different than serbian or bosnian, or even macedonian.
remember, i respect ALL nationalities and have nothing against anybody.
but my people struggled for may decades to have our own
country and flag, and i REALLY value that....
BUT, the hottest women FOR SURE are from the balkan region.
NO DOUBT about that....have been to dozens of countries
worldwide, and the most BEAUTIFUL women are serbian or
croatian:eyespop: :eyespop: :crazy: |
What about the fact that you speak the same language as Serbs? In fact, isn't the only difference between you two your religion (ok, cyrillic v. latin as well but ignore that for a sec)?? |
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| ShadoWolf |
| Tito was not the problem, it was the Turkish Muslims that caused the problems by invading and occupying for 500 years. As a result, other foreign powers always meddled in that region (Austria, Germany, Russia, the Vatican, USA, etc.). |
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| Dr. Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by ShadoWolf
Tito was not the problem, it was the Turkish Muslims that caused the problems by invading and occupying for 500 years. As a result, other foreign powers always meddled in that region (Austria, Germany, Russia, the Vatican, USA, etc.). |
Well, I wouldn't put all the weight on the Ottoman empire, although their presence is what triggered much rivalry, some caused by the christians, some caused by the muslims.
Tito was the solution, noone followed him after he died. |
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| Special K |
| quote: | Originally posted by ShadoWolf
What about the fact that you speak the same language as Serbs? In fact, isn't the only difference between you two your religion (ok, cyrillic v. latin as well but ignore that for a sec)?? |
Even the language though isnt completely the same. Serbs say/spell a bunch of words differently than us. And there are some subtleties and nuances in the languages that would allow for a person to be able to tell whether or not the person they are speaking to is Croatian or Serbian or Bosnian but yes the language is pretty similar.
Also Croatia was never really a part of the Ottoman Empire either, but we were a part of the Austro-Hungarian one as opposed to the Serbs that were. So the way in which both countries sort of developed was on a different tip.
And most of Croatia's culture borrows itself from the Western/Roman Empires whereas in Serbia they were more influenced by the Eastern Byzantine culture. The biggest result of that being the fact that Croatians are Roman Catholic whereas Serbs are Orthodox.
It almost seems as though for every similarity there seems to be a pretty major difference (or two). |
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| ShadoWolf |
| I think Croatia and Serbia/Montenegro should sign a free-trade agreement and have cultural exchanges. |
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| Special K |
| quote: | Originally posted by ShadoWolf
Tito was not the problem, it was the Turkish Muslims that caused the problems by invading and occupying for 500 years. As a result, other foreign powers always meddled in that region (Austria, Germany, Russia, the Vatican, USA, etc.). |
My own personal feeling (as previously noted) is that the way in which Tito construced that place was what led to war. He controlled EVERYTHING down there through his tight grip of any and all information that was found there. He formulated the history of Yugoslavia to make it seem like the peoples of Yugoslavia weren't different at all when in fact they were. In a way it's funny, you have Slovenes saying that they have more in common with Western Europeans than with Central Europeans. Macedonians say they belong to the Meditteranean culture. Bosnia has distinct near Eastern characteristics while Serbians gravitate toward Orthodox countries, especially Russia. Even within Serbia, Vojvodina is by some regarded as Central European, Serbia proper Eastern European, and Kosovo near Eastern. It is therefore not surprising that the peoples of the former Yugoslavia did not have a strong sense of traditional bonding. And would you really expect them too? All Tito did was suppress any and all emotions people had with eachother, and when you do that, you let things build and build and build and then the end result is the ed up situation we saw take place in the form of the wars of the 90's.
So what happens when Tito dies, the enormous propoganda machine which had obediently cranked out slogans of "brotherhood and unity", idealizing common Yugoslav achievements, disengages itself from this program. His death leads to a massive power vacuum and the end result sees nationalistic leaders whos apparent goal is to even further destabilize the area come into power.
We will obviously agree to disagree with one another on that one but the way in which he constructed "Yugoslavia" is what made breakup inevitable.
IMO IMO IMO
Whether or not you choose to agree with me on that is cool, one thing I think we can all agree on is that the war was a major step BACKWARDS in the progress of humankind. |
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| st0ka. |
i think we should drop politics at least on this site...cuz i know if we continue som1 will say something that will really insult the other nationalities...and we dont wanna have a TOTA war....
we cant say what happened and who was wrong because we have 3 different viewpoints here...and the rivalry is still hot...just look what happened in sports..."friendly" game between partizan-dinamo....waterpolo finals Yug-Cro.....zvezda-cibona...
to get off the topic..i know that slovenians have amazing djs/producers...but i havent heard of many croats....som1 wanna recomend some? |
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| Tb. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Special K
My own personal feeling (as previously noted) is that the way in which Tito construced that place was what led to war. He controlled EVERYTHING down there through his tight grip of any and all information that was found there. He formulated the history of Yugoslavia to make it seem like the peoples of Yugoslavia weren't different at all when in fact they were. In a way it's funny, you have Slovenes saying that they have more in common with Western Europeans than with Central Europeans. Macedonians say they belong to the Meditteranean culture. Bosnia has distinct near Eastern characteristics while Serbians gravitate toward Orthodox countries, especially Russia. Even within Serbia, Vojvodina is by some regarded as Central European, Serbia proper Eastern European, and Kosovo near Eastern. It is therefore not surprising that the peoples of the former Yugoslavia did not have a strong sense of traditional bonding. And would you really expect them too? All Tito did was suppress any and all emotions people had with eachother, and when you do that, you let things build and build and build and then the end result is the ed up situation we saw take place in the form of the wars of the 90's.
So what happens when Tito dies, the enormous propoganda machine which had obediently cranked out slogans of "brotherhood and unity", idealizing common Yugoslav achievements, disengages itself from this program. His death leads to a massive power vacuum and the end result sees nationalistic leaders whos apparent goal is to even further destabilize the area come into power.
We will obviously agree to disagree with one another on that one but the way in which he constructed "Yugoslavia" is what made breakup inevitable.
IMO IMO IMO
Whether or not you choose to agree with me on that is cool, one thing I think we can all agree on is that the war was a major step BACKWARDS in the progress of humankind. |
alright, i thought i could stay away from talking politics..but looks like u dragged me in lol
What you say is true, Tito did surpress Serbian nationalism, did whatever he had to, to keep Serbia a functioning part of Yugoslavia, and u know what, it worked. People like to blame everything on Tito, especially the Serbs, because he was half croatian which made him obviously bias towards the Serbs right? Well you can't keep everyone happy, Croats werent happy with Belgrade being the capital of Yugoslavia, and probably had some other grievences as well.
However, the main problem was foreign interest, which is something that has plagued that region for hundreds of years. Tito managed to keep Yugoslavia from becoming another Russian occupied communist country, and thank God he did, because most Eastern European countries suffered under communism during that period in time. What Tito did manage to do, is make the Americans interested in keeping Yugoslavia from becoming a communist country. Yugoslavia was then pumped full of American money, billions of dollars to assure their interest, and the people of Yugoslavia lived relitively well compared to other Eastern European countries. Ask anyone who lived during Titos rule, there was no oppresion, sure we were Socialist, but my parents generation were free to do everything.
However, some people lived better than others, got greedy and abused the social system that was in place, used their positions in government to take more than they needed, but thats just human nature, and thats why full on socialism will never work. So without getting off topic, once Russia collapsed, America no longer had any point in funding Yugoslavia, and roughly around the same time, Tito died, the man who kept it all together. So once the illusion of Yugoslavia was gone, once people realised they could no longer live life the way they once did, then old nationalism started comming back, people started remembering bloody history who did what to who. There was a land grab, people wanted to get as much land as possible for their side, and that was the begining of the end for Yugoslavia. |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| it is disgusting, but it's true |
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| Special K |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tb.
However, the main problem was foreign interest, which is something that has plagued that region for hundreds of years. Ask anyone who lived during Titos rule, there was no oppresion, sure we were Socialist, but my parents generation were free to do everything.
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I'd agree with you on that point for sure. I've always liked this quote...
"The Balkan countries are seen as culprits who force the reluctant powers into their unfathomable conflicts. This imagined Balkans - a world where people are motivated not by rational consideration but by a mysterious congenital bloodthirstiness - is always invoked when the great powers seek to deny their responsibility for the economic and political difficulties that the region has suffered as a consequence of external differences."
About the "free to do everything part". I'd disagree with you on that, as im sure most of the other thousands upon thousands of people that left Yugoslavia in the 50's/60's/70's would as well. At the end of the day, Tito was still an authoritarian leader that ruled the country with an iron fist. I guess everyone has their own definition and expectations of "freedom".
ps. whats ironic is that before the 20th century, Croatia and Serbia had never actually engaged in a war with eachother. In fact they had even co-operated with one another during the revolutionary years of 1848/49. The most recent war's were seen as ancient renewal's of hostilities but this couldnt have been further from the truth, it was only until this century that they started fighting against eachother (thanks to the help of the growing rise in Cro/Serb nationalism which came to the forefront in the late 19th century from the likes of Karadzic + Starcevic and the manipulation of foreign powers).
pps. one of the dudes from Filo and Peri is Croatian. I can't think of anyone else right now...
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| Dr. Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by st0ka.
i think we should drop politics at least on this site...cuz i know if we continue som1 will say something that will really insult the other nationalities...and we dont wanna have a TOTA war....
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Noone is here to insult anyone. And you shouldn't be insulted by anything thats posted. Discussion of politics is good.
| quote: |
we cant say what happened and who was wrong because we have 3 different viewpoints here...and the rivalry is still hot...just look what happened in sports..."friendly" game between partizan-dinamo....waterpolo finals Yug-Cro.....zvezda-cibona...
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We're not here to place blame.
We're here to bitch, about the rediculusly stupid events that happened.
I think we are uniting here with the help of discussion, what the people failed to do...
I think this is a great thread.
Back to topic:
I agree with some of the past few posts. |
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