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Calif. Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages (pg. 3)
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by arctic
No, I don't know exactly what it is. Do you mean marriage as it is now in some US states, or are you referring to other forms of marriage that have been in place in the past? Are you perhaps referring to a specific religion's understanding of what marriage is, or even the 'institutions' in place in countries that do allow gay marriages?
Because social justice takes time. You could have leveled the same criticism when African Americans were fighting for their civil rights -- it doesn't make the cause at hand any less valid.
Just to add to what I said above, they no doubt had other obstacles to overcome. Keep in mind that prejudice towards gays was worse back then -- marriage may not have seemed like an achievable aim, but who knows -- maybe it was an issue back then, but simply failed to get any media attention.
Not really, There are still numerous benefits that they are denied. Religioustolerance .org has a good page on it if you’ve got time to look.
Yes, and the problem with that is? They certainly do appear to be suffering discrimination.
Okay, why? Why shouldn't we fight discrimination?
I take it that you support making inter-racial marriage illegal again then? After all, after we 'changed the definition of marriage' to allow white people to marry black people, the moral fiber of the world has all-but collapsed! Likewise when we radically changed the definition of marriage to mean that women weren't property of their husbands. After we changed the institution, we had these women who had the audacity to suggest that if their husband was beating them, they should be allowed to divorce him! We've been re-defining marriage ever since the word 'marriage' first appeared, so don't act as if it's something new.
FYI, you might want to pick up a recent dictionary, as same-sex marriages are in fact listed as a valid definition under the word 'marriage'. You're going to have to do better than an 'argument from the dictionary' I’m afraid. |
not unlike ^ this. it's just my opinion. i do own a thesarus though |
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| torontotrance |
| I'm allowed under my country's law to voice my opinion to any subject or thing that happens in Canada. I'm not stating here that homosexuals should be hated, I don't hate them, I simply view that marriage is a covenant between God and the man and the woman. In the Christian faith, marriage is more than a simple legal document, but I know arctic being the anti religious person he is, will argue it. I think that no country should recognize same sex marriages. They are protected from discrimination under the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms, I feel that's enough. I signed every single petition that the churches had going against same sex marriages, it was within my freedom of opinion and freedom of religion to do that and I'll continue saying till the day that I die that homosexuality is wrong and it is a sin in my religion. I don't see why with some of you people, just because you believe a religion, you are simply branded wrong. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by torontotrance
I'm allowed under my country's law to voice my opinion to any subject or thing that happens in Canada. I'm not stating here that homosexuals should be hated, I don't hate them, I simply view that marriage is a covenant between God and the man and the woman. In the Christian faith, marriage is more than a simple legal document, but I know arctic being the anti religious person he is, will argue it. I think that no country should recognize same sex marriages. They are protected from discrimination under the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms, I feel that's enough. I signed every single petition that the churches had going against same sex marriages, it was within my freedom of opinion and freedom of religion to do that and I'll continue saying till the day that I die that homosexuality is wrong and it is a sin in my religion. I don't see why with some of you people, just because you believe a religion, you are simply branded wrong. |
do you know that you are judging someones existance by the nature of their sexual attraction? And this all coming from words in a book written thousands of years ago?
This is is just too much now... its come to the point of utter stupidity.
What about bisexuals??? are they "half" sinning? :rolleyes:
I want to express my rights and freedoms too.. i think all the monotheistic religions should be deemed illegal and all those books be burned into into what it should be - worthless piles of ash
Thank humanity for science...we would be still burning, crucifying and drowning people becuase of their "sins" |
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| torontotrance |
| I knew you would come out and say that, you can go on about how you think religion is wrong and you do that often. I'm not going to bother wasting my time with your rhetoric, your views won't change my views ever and I'm going to keep standing up for my rights and my personal views. |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by torontotrance
[QUOTE]I simply view that marriage is a covenant between God and the man and the woman. |
You are confusing religious marriage and civil marriage. Civil marriage has nothing to do with your religion, if it did -- then Muslims, non-theists, Hindus and so forth wouldn't be allowed to get married. Nobody is suggesting that your church needs to recognize gay marriage, simply that the government should.
| quote: | | In the Christian faith, marriage is more than a simple legal document |
And that's fine, nobody is saying that it isn't. Again, what your religion thinks about marriage has nothing to do with, well, anything really.
| quote: | | but I know arctic being the anti religious person he is, will argue it. |
TTA, I’m not anti-religion, I generally have no problem with religion or religious people. I do, however, object to you and other religionists trying to force your religion upon others who don't follow it -- which is exactly what Christians and Muslims are doing when it comes to gay marriage.
| quote: | | They are protected from discrimination under the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms, I feel that's enough. |
Umm, not allowing them to marry is discriminating on them on the basis of sexual orientation.
| quote: | | I signed every single petition that the churches had going against same sex marriages, it was within my freedom of opinion and freedom of religion to do that |
And nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't be allowed to do that. I'm a strong supporter of free speech and I expect always will be. All I’m doing is exercising my right to free speech, and using it to point out that the arguments against gay marriage are authoritarian, absurd and illogical.
| quote: | | and I'll continue saying till the day that I die that homosexuality is wrong and it is a sin in my religion. |
Once again, that's fine -- but that doesn't mean that the government should enforce your religion on others. Truly, if you're interested in a theocracy, take a look at how things work in Iran. |
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| torontotrance |
| See I think Christians get a bad rap at times because of the actions of a few. I've never forced my beliefs on anyone nor will I, I'm a proud Christian and that's what I'll be till the day I die. Yes I understand that some of you have had others force religion down your throat and you are bitter because of it. I look at it with this analogy, if you force something down your throat, you throw up and the vomit leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The same is with religion and if any of you have had people force religion at you then I feel they are not thinking correctly. I always try follow the Christian beliefs and if someone has a question, I'm more than happy to attempt to answer it and if I need to ask someone I know then I will. In the USA, the Christian right at times is over the top and that's pathetic imo. I'm not forcing my views on anyone but I will stand up for what I believe to be the truth and I don't believe gay marriages should be legal, I'm sorry but that's my view and that's the way it is. Most people that claim to be Christians are not Christian imo, either you live the life or you don't, there is no in between. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin and with the Christian view, there is no exception. We are taught to follow God's word but the Bible also tells us to love others as Christ loved us. I don't hate gays but I'm certainly not going to let them push their agenda into law without a fight. The Canadian courts have ruled for the most part that gay marriages are legal and I can't do anything about that. The country views it as legal but I don't and never will. I think the problem with people today is that they hear this person is a Christian and they immediately jump to generalizations from people that have hurt them in the past. I'm sorry that it happened but people have to understand Christians like me won't just sit around and let our country do things that our religion does not agree with, without voicing our opinions about it. In the last few years, I signed 6 petitions stating that we believe that marriage is a convenant between God and man and wife, I remember my church speaking up about it but we never said hate homosexuals. I think people in today's society tends to jump to conclusions about Christians, for the most part, most of the real Christians tend not to hate anyone but we stand up for our beliefs, which are enshrined in most constitutions. |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by torontotrance
See I think Christians get a bad rap at times because of the actions of a few. I've never forced my beliefs on anyone nor will I |
Err, so why do you want to ban gay marriage because of your religious beliefs? If that's not forcing your religion on others, I don't know what is.
| quote: | | I'm a proud Christian and that's what I'll be till the day I die. Yes I understand that some of you have had others force religion down your throat and you are bitter because of it. I look at it with this analogy, if you force something down your throat, you throw up and the vomit leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The same is with religion and if any of you have had people force religion at you then I feel they are not thinking correctly. I always try follow the Christian beliefs and if someone has a question, I'm more than happy to attempt to answer it and if I need to ask someone I know then I will. |
Nobody has ever really tried to force it down my throat, personally -- but then again, i'm a white straight male, so i'm generally okay. I do of course observe them forcing it down other's throats though -- gay marriage being a prime example.
| quote: | | In the USA, the Christian right at times is over the top and that's pathetic imo. I'm not forcing my views on anyone but I will stand up for what I believe to be the truth and I don't believe gay marriages should be legal, I'm sorry but that's my view and that's the way it is. |
Again, that's fine --but we're still waiting for why you think they should be illegial. You're evading the question here TTA.
| quote: | | Most people that claim to be Christians are not Christian imo, either you live the life or you don't, there is no in between. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin and with the Christian view, there is no exception. We are taught to follow God's word but the Bible also tells us to love others as Christ loved us. |
Do you believe that slavery should be legal? That would be in keeping with what the bible says. What about killing women who've been raped -- the bible condones that as well. Come to think of it, should adultery be illegal? If not, then why not? If you want your religious beliefs to become the law -- then be consistent.
| quote: | | I don't hate gays but I'm certainly not going to let them push their agenda into law without a fight. |
When that 'agenda' is equal rights, I don't see why it shouldn't be put into law.
| quote: | | I think the problem with people today is that they hear this person is a Christian and they immediately jump to generalizations from people that have hurt them in the past. |
In come cases that's undoubtedly true, but when 33% of the world's population is Christian, it's not exactly a major problem. More than 50% of the population in your country (and mine for that matter) are Christians, so you do have the upper hand -- far more people generalize about people who don't follow a religion than the other way around IMHO.
| quote: | | I'm sorry that it happened but people have to understand Christians like me won't just sit around and let our country do things that our religion does not agree with |
So you are forcing your religion on others. Honestly, make your mind up -- you can't have it both ways.
| quote: | | In the last few years, I signed 6 petitions stating that we believe that marriage is a convenant between God and man and wife, I remember my church speaking up about it but we never said hate homosexuals. |
Should Muslims be allowed to get married? What about atheists? FFS Andy, legal marriage has nothing to do with your religion. The entire point is that the government can recognize marriages, irrespective of religion. If we're going to make it a solely religious institution, then which religion will we run with? What about people who don't follow that religion?
Have you even thought this through -- implementing a theocratic marriage law would be a disaster. I don’t think that you understand exactly what you’re proposing here – we’d have to re-write the entire constitution of most western nations and turn them into theocracies. |
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| torontotrance |
I said I feel homosexual marriages should be illegal because homosexuality is a sin and marriage is between God and man and a woman.
You failed to see the point I guess
Most of Canada claims to be Christian but if they were really Christian, they would have created more uproar about the gay marriages. So that leads me to believe that most people just claim to be Christian but most are not. See the gay marriage people have claimed the same thing that Christians are not promoting equal rights but my beliefs say it is wrong, so I don't recognize it as right. Arctic, you and me will never agree on anything, you have your opinion that gay marriage should be legal and you are an atheist. I am a Christian and I believe that the Bible states marriage is between a man and a woman. By my views, I believe that I will have to answer to a higher authority at some point and the same thing will happen with you. I don't care what the world thinks about anything, I don't answer to the world, I answer to God and I'm more scared of God than the world. I bought into the world mentality for a while, once in my life, I wanted to see where it would lead me and it nearly drove me to suicide, fortunately I found religion again and I've been content ever since. I'm tired of being told that since I am a Christian, my views don't matter, I'm tired of people trying to push us away. |
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| speedracer_mec |
I have a problem with gays getting married.
However..
Fact of the matter is you cant really provide a valid justification for making it illegal for gays to get married without bringing in religion.
And religion therefore divides the people's stance on this issue even more. |
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| torontotrance |
| I always thought something about homosexuality did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that. |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by torontotrance
I always thought something about homosexuality did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that. |
I always thought something about eating shrimp did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that. |
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| speedracer_mec |
| quote: | Originally posted by torontotrance
I always thought something about homosexuality did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that. |
Let me say this.
Marriage is about love.
Rite?
Ok so allowing gays to marry...fine..go ahead.
So in that case....
I will go marry my dog.
I will go marry my favorite street sign.
I will go marry my car.
I will go marry my favorite airline service.
If they dont allow it...I will be discriminated upon.
See...you have to draw the line somewhere.
IN this case...marriage. Its a union between the gender of a man and a woman.
Otherwise...Lets just completely distort the meaning of marriage. |
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