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Why do you think that some people... (pg. 3)
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| Laushinameee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nite-Mer
If you are content with a dj playing to an unintelligible audience (which most are, at least 75% at virtually any show) and mixing terribly, but playing good tracks and keeping the crowd going, then Tiesto is great. I just hold dj's to a higher standard, because I hold myself to a higher standard. I can't tell you how many times I've been disappointed by highly ranked trance dj's since I started getting good at spinning. Most of the proggy guys are a lot more consistent at their mixing, or, at least, their beat matching. I want more than just record selection. Really the only guys I've been satisfied watching, playing trance lately, were Armin and Ferry. Tiesto and Van Dyk are highly overrated. |
what youve said is valid as far as tiesto is concerned, but its difficult to see how you can say Armin & Ferry are good, and then go on to say that PvD is overrated ...
the whole point of this is 'why do people think PvD/tiesto is the best producer ever' .... mainly its because they dont know any better
but you cant lump PvD in the same field as tiesto, armin, & ferry... he is and always has been lengths ahead of them in terms of production & djing
hes worked with some of the biggest names from across all genres, like carl cox, st etienne, new order, sven vath, takkyu ishino, bt, inspiral carpets etc... a list of collaborations that tiesto/armin / ferry could only dream of ...
mainly they are stuck to working with each other or with 'l vee'
and as far as djing is concerned only PvD can count sasha/digweed/garnier/deep dish/adam freeland as people who like and respect him as a dj and an artist
on the other hand, adam freeland was once asked... if you had one bullet, who would get it? to which he replied dj tiesto...
criticising PvD is fine, hes not perfect, but dont lump him in with armin & ferry & tiesto because he is in a totally different league. |
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| aspergian |
Wow, this thread grows almost as fast as nanotech-enhanced bamboo (hypothetically, anyway)!
Here are some of my further ruminations at hand in an oblique, tangential way:
Laushinameee: Kraftwerk, not that good? Tangerine Dream, shallow? :( How much of their discographies have you listened to?
In short, these two artists are pillars of EDM. For anyone who listens to trance music today, the arpeggiation and oscillations involved are derived by the influence of the trademark TD ostinato. Lush ambient padding in the breakdowns? Hello Froese and friends! Not only them, and I could go on namedropping Vangelis, Jean Michel Jarre, Yanni, etc. but I just have a lot of tremendous respect for the talented pioneers AND I enjoy their music. If you ripped "Tangerine Dream" out of the timeline, well, a big piece of ambient/chill-out research & development would be gone. And did they make good songs? Well, good enough for Mark Pritchard and Tom Middleton to give a sly nod to on the Global Communication 76:14 album. Which is, of course, a masterpiece of more contemporary times. There are so many exciting threads in this quilt! :)
As for Kraftwerk, why do I consider them great? ;) Well, the same reason a lot of people consider them great. They combined the bizarre technology of that time to make pop songs like "The Model" and sprawling complexes like "Autobahn". Keeping in mind synthesizers were more commonly used to perform academic experiments with, they really expressed themselves like no one else could. The quartet of Men-Machines infused their proto-techno-punk ethos with catchiness and let a whole lot of cats out of the bag -- influential ideas central to the foundation of electronic music production -- that are still being followed today. Not to mention: that whole thing with Afrika Bambaataa, which really helped roll the road for hip-hop music. In a sentence: Who knew robots could be so funky?
So again, if you are missing Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk, it's like an encyclopedia explaining the rich technocultural heritage with a chunk of the most important pages ripped out. Is there historically important music (in hindsight) I don't care for? Yupsureyabetcha. But I've listened once, twice, a few times more. I understand if you say, "I've gone through their entire back catalog twice and read their biography and I still don't like them". Hey, you know what? That's fine. But it is dangerous and disrespectful to dismiss the contributions of those who have come before us. What is Kaku without Einstein without Newton? Also, if I was an ardent Tiesto hater (which I am not), I would be at least an iota wise to recognize the joy he has brought to people's lives, and therefore, his significance in their existence. But using superlatives like "THE GREATEST EVAR, FOR YOU, FOR ME, FOR EVERYBODY!!!!" with a deadpan look is troublesome for this very reason and the reasons I stated up above. ;) Which brings us back to this:
As for being "pisstakers", Kraftwerk, like Daft Punk, both have senses of humor. But they are VERY serious about certain ideologies they bring forth. The K-men have taught us not to be afraid of technology through song. It's alright not to get Kraftwerk right away either. In fact, we have modern-day analogues. In 2004 A.D., we hear many Kraftwerkian musical innovations without lifting an eyebrow, just like how people don't freak out upon using the Internet anymore... we've gotten acclimated and taken for granted our machines. And so, it will continue. When you really look at the roots and not just the music but the social context and humankind's involvement with arts & culture, you can appreciate it all more.
In short, this is why people like to hear "the story behind the song", as it helps them relate; connect one thing to another. Words are words and music is music but both have a place in our hearts.
DJDREO: Thank you graciously :)
josh4: I could have, but that would not be me.
mndeg: I'm not terribly hyperlexic/wordskilled and am actually trying to improve my vocabulary because I can have a difficult time communicating through language -- I am autistic -- but thank you.
In ANY case, people should just take it upon themselves to open their minds and ears, as you never know what you might enjoy next! . . . there's a simple quiz I've used lately to help me out in this regard, and it involves a musician I namedropped above. I ask someone:
What do you think of Yanni's music?
And if they have heard of his much-maligned reputation and have nothing of their own to add, no doubt they will say "Yanni makes me yawny" or "Yanni sucks!" or "Yanni is elevator music" or somesuch variation upon these lines. And then I ask:
How much have you actually heard of Yanni's music? Which songs, and why?
And then, then answer usually is... "Uhhh... I dunno... uhhh..." or "I can't remember, it's all cheese and blows". I have nary heard a soul say something as apt as "I listened to 'Keys of Imagination' and 'Reflections of Passion', and really didn't like it because..."
The point being: I've found that human beings may be quick to dismiss something before they've even given it a chance. Each of us finds personal truths within the sound, and it helps to inform others better where we're coming from if we share our opinions firmly but politely and help each other to discover music we enjoy. Surely we are advanced enough lifeforms. Are we?
Don't judge a baking contest before tasting all of the goods! :D |
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| Laushinameee |
i have heard i would estimate about 90% of everything kraftwerk & tangerine dream have ever done ... (although not any of kraftwerks newer things, i didnt know they were still together)
and kraftwerk are universally over estimated. people try and intellectuallise their music so much, but its not really all that good. technically they were poor and pushed absolutely no boundaries, so i can see no argument that they are 'amazing'. Im not saying they are but theres nothing special about them apart from the fact that people like to remember them through rose tinted spectacles...
as for tangerine dream they are 100% cheesy ... if they were producing music today they would be dj sammy. their music isnt really worth much discussion. |
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| aspergian |
I'm sorry,
| quote: | | technically they were poor and pushed absolutely no boundaries |
makes me inquire further (BTW, your statement about Tangerine Dream and cheesiness aside -- I don't relate to that term).
How would you say Kraftwerk was poor technically? Can you please cite specific examples, considering what they had to work with back then?
Thank you. |
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| Laushinameee |
| quote: | Originally posted by aspergian
I'm sorry,
makes me inquire further (BTW, your statement about Tangerine Dream and cheesiness aside -- I don't relate to that term).
How would you say Kraftwerk was poor technically? Can you please cite specific examples, considering what they had to work with back then?
Thank you. |
i'm well aware that technology is far more advanced today & to compare music today to kraftwerk is fairly pointless.... but most kraftwerk tracks follow the same pattern, and have very simple sounds ... throughout their career their sound advanced very little. |
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| aspergian |
Thanks, but could you please give a more detailed comparison?
I'm curious about your point of view. |
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| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Cinos
Say stuff like "Tiesto is the most talented producer ever" (or replace Tiesto with PvD, Armin, Picotto... whomever)?
It's obviously not true, and it annoys me to no end. Sure, they're good, but nowhere NEAR the best. Sorry if I'm ranting, but... |
Personal opinion?
Talent is different, though. Zabiela is indeed more talented than Tiësto, and so are many other DJs. Though I'm a big fan of Tiësto, I'll always be the first to admit it.
Liking a DJ over another DJ all boils down to personal taste. |
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| Laushinameee |
| quote: | Originally posted by aspergian
Thanks, but could you please give a more detailed comparison?
I'm curious about your point of view. |
compare anything by kraftwerk to anything by new order & its clear who the better artists are ... in terms of producton generally its hard to compare but there were so many more artists at the time with a hell of a lot more integrity & imagination than kraftwerk. |
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| Nite-Mer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Laushinameee
what youve said is valid as far as tiesto is concerned, but its difficult to see how you can say Armin & Ferry are good, and then go on to say that PvD is overrated ...
the whole point of this is 'why do people think PvD/tiesto is the best producer ever' .... mainly its because they dont know any better
but you cant lump PvD in the same field as tiesto, armin, & ferry... he is and always has been lengths ahead of them in terms of production & djing
hes worked with some of the biggest names from across all genres, like carl cox, st etienne, new order, sven vath, takkyu ishino, bt, inspiral carpets etc... a list of collaborations that tiesto/armin / ferry could only dream of ...
mainly they are stuck to working with each other or with 'l vee'
and as far as djing is concerned only PvD can count sasha/digweed/garnier/deep dish/adam freeland as people who like and respect him as a dj and an artist
on the other hand, adam freeland was once asked... if you had one bullet, who would get it? to which he replied dj tiesto...
criticising PvD is fine, hes not perfect, but dont lump him in with armin & ferry & tiesto because he is in a totally different league. |
Production ability is a little harder to gauge than dj ability between these guys because everyone has a different taste in music. The reason I lumped these guys together is that they are all in the top ten dj's in the world and all play trance.
As far as PVD being in a different league, I disagree to some extent. I used to love Van Dyk and thought he was the best dj/producer out there. His old production was fantastic, but now he uses a cookie cutter approach to his songs and his live sets. Everything sounds the same. Politics of Dancing was a phenomenal album that he mixed on the computer. Wow, that's tough. The remixing was good, but it doesn't take much to computer mix a set. His live work is/has been very sloppy, at least of late. He played here recently and the track selection was better than what I have heard lately, but he wrecked all over the place. I love PVD pre 2002. Lately, he has sucked. Armin is a far more consistent dj and plays an array of tracks that have a lot more variance. Tiesto probably has the best track selection, but he sucks as a dj. He is a decent producer, but was better in the past. Ferry is pretty consistent at both, but he hasn't thrilled me much lately. I really don't think the top guns of trance are really all that great at all. The fact that tiesto and van dyk are ranked above Sasha, Digweed, Sander K, etc... sucks. |
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| aspergian |
Laushinameee, I like New Order too ("Blue Monday" is but one of many great singles), but that eludes my earlier question because I was asking you to compare Kraftwerk of one timeframe to Kraftwerk of another.
It is true they focus on minimal, simple sounds -- then again, it could be argued that those beeps and bleeps are their trademark beauty. One could look at aesthetics of modern basic works like those of Plastikman's or even Tiesto's "Traffic" and see the lineage.
But then, it makes you wonder something more tangible pertaining to survival: so why did Kraftwerk stand out and why are they still iconic (and performing live, albeit with a different lineup) so many years later?
What has made them stand the test of time in the transient world of EDM when so many others have bowed out?
idoru: I think the word "ever" is the crux in the phrase:
"Tiesto is the most talented producer ever" ;) |
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| sandstorm03 |
| u guys are way 2 elite for me...:haha: |
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| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by aspergian
idoru: I think the word "ever" is the crux in the phrase:
"Tiesto is the most talented producer ever" ;) |
But isn't that still personal opinion? |
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