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Pay using your cell phone (pg. 2)
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Wasn't this the whole concept of having bluetooth in your cell phone though? |
Bluetooth would just provide the interface with ATM network. A celluar network could do the same, as could any of the WiLAN standards, as could IR, a phone-coupler, etc.
The connection to the ATM network is least important part.
IMO - the most important aspect of this is the use of already used, standardized and relatively-secure technologies (SMS, ATM networks, etc).
glob_bash - although building your own (Java based?) application to run on the phone is a good option - I think it makes it much more complex then need be (since SMS and ATM already exist and work so well). Further without a clear revenue stream for the mobile network provider and bank, it's going to be hard to get them to bother with implementing or signing on to something like this. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
Israel is in the middle east.:eek: |
Well kiss ma grits, Israel IS in the middle east!
...as if I didn't know that. I was referring to the cell phone culture, not the geographic location. |
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| St_Andrew |
Sorry for using sweden as an example but its much easier that way since i obviously know a lot about that country.
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
[FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#99CCEE]Don't worry, I understand the European cellphone culture, I've been to Israel. I'll address both points:
1. I practically never leave the house without my wallet. I can understand people wanting to take their cells just about everywhere, but why you wouldn't also take your wallet escapes my grasp. That's just silly.
You also neglect the real reason why Europe has this "cell phone culture". It is not, as you may assume, because Canada is "behind the times." It is because Europe's landline system was always TERRIBLE, so the communications companies invested their money into wireless technology. But North America's landline system is still VERY good and making plenty of money. Sure, people want cell phones here too, and companies like Fido are trying to get people to switch their home phones to cell phones, but only to a very limited extent. |
What are you speaking about?! the landlines are terrible?! NO they arent! theres no difference beween landlines in canada and sweden! sweden has always had one of the best networks in the world (it was one of the first countries going over to digital etc). i have NEVER had any problems WHATSOEVER with landlines in europe. Every house do have it also, it was the policy of the swedish government that every house in sweden should have it to an equal cost whereever you lived.
What sweden (and other european countries i think) do not have however is unlimited local calling. But in sweden for example it cost something like 1 dollar per hour to call anywhere in the country so its not that big of a deal. and i also think that sweden have much lower monthly prices.
| quote: | | Cell phone carriers here will never want to provide "complete" service on their wireless services because they still make a pantload of money from land lines. Just look at DSL - a viable alternative to cable high-speed internet available on almost ANY land line, assuming the line is up-to-date. That's an extra $40-$70 a month per customer, right there. High-speed internet sucks ass in Europe! Neither cable or DSL are available at all in several regions, and where it is available, it's often limited to less than 200 kbits downstream, which is a fraction of what you can get here for a fraction of what it costs to get it there. |
Again, wtf are you talking about!? sweden (with an even suckier democrafic situation than canada) has has a DSL coverage of like 98% of the population! and you can get a 2mbit/512kbit connection for like 60 dollars a month (in areas with fiber you can get a 10mbit connection for less than 60 dollars).
| quote: | | That's a bit of a digression but it should help you understand why cell phones won't become as popular here as they are in Europe. In Europe there was really no alternative to wireless because land lines were so bad - here, we don't NEED cell phones, and everybody is comfortable with land lines, so phone companies are not going to put all their eggs in one basket (wireless) when they can have people subscribing to BOTH services. |
as i have just said the land lines doesnt suck in sweden. that is obviously not the problem. i would say that the problem is that calling landline in canada is really cheap and calling wireless is quite expensive. it is also a lot more complicated to have a cellphone here and the coverage for cells sucks too (now i live in a small city here in canada but still, areas like that would have GOOD coverage in sweden).
| quote: | | 2. Digital cameras I can understand, but ATM cards go in my wallet. I keep other things in my wallet that cannot go on my cell phone, like various ID and discount cards and... couple of other things in case of emergency. And if my ID could go on my cell phone, I wouldn't want it to, because then I have to choose from either (a) anybody who steals my cell phone would have access to my ID, or (b) I have to punch in some stupid password every time I want to produce it. Maybe both, depending on how insecure the system is or how awkward the interfce is! That would be a massive pain in the ass! |
anybody who steals your wallet will have access to your ID too, same logic. the password thing could be you just tuching the back of the cellphone which then is reading your fingerprint. ah the future could be so cool :p anway, much more secure than today! you also forget that if you lose your cell you can easily make it unusable (even tho they change sim card or whatever).
| quote: | | Aside from which, I can virtually guarantee that at least one time, one day, you will have no cash and wish you did. Most of the time, when people get something really cheap, it's for cash. In Kingston there were always people going around selling incredibly cheap stuff (it was probably stolen but that's none of my business), but of course they only took cash. It's not always stolen either - sometimes you'll just run into someone on the street who really needs cash and decides to sell something. Whether you want what they're selling or whether you're the charitable type who would just give them some money, you need cash for it. |
then you simply transfer your money to their cell phone tru some wireless technique ;)
| quote: | | When you're standing in line at a club, you need cash for cover. When you stop at a coffee shop or most take-out places for breakfast or lunch, they only take cash. If you ever go to a garage sale or a used bookstore, they want cash. Lots of small businessmen will give you a huge discount if you pay cash. Computer stores invariably give you a 3% discount if you pay cash - some of them take debit as an alternative but most don't. |
that is cause companies like VISA takes like 5% from the store owner for every transaction. Imo this would be more as a substitute for money, and a trasaction therefore shouldnt cost anything.
| quote: | | So you see, there is simply no substitute for cash, and there never will be. Some may say that if EVERYBODY had one of these cell phones then we'd be fine, but they forget that cash has other uses (i.e. it's not traceable), and as Emery said, there are some people who just go against the grain for no particular reason, especially older folks. |
true, cash will *probably* always excist. tho i think we will see a significant decrease in the use of it when this kinds of techniques comes to the market big scale. and for elder people, they will learn too ;) and there will always still be cash (even tho none really uses it)
| quote: | | If I need to carry cash, why not carry a wallet? If I need a wallet, why not keep my ATM and credit cards on there, rather than on a computer where someone else could *potentially* gain access to them? Security is such a HUGE issue with digital technology that few if any people who use it seem to be aware of. But identity theft is on the rise here, and moving all of our personal information to a COMMUNICATION device certainly cannot alleviate the problem. |
using your cellphone as a paying device would be SOOOOO much safer than using a credit/debit card tho! there's so many more possiblities of security techniques that can be used. however i do realize the privacy issue that some people have with all your transactions beeing monitored. but i think that could be easily solved by heavy government restrictions on what is alloud to monitor and what is not.
| quote: | | How's that for an answer? ;) |
impressivly long ;) |
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| glob_bash |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I didn't actually vote, but I'm not overly keen on the idea that losing my cell phone would be as bad as losing my ATM card. Sure they'd still need a PIN, but it's just a security hazard, people seem to lose/forget their cell phones A LOT more often than their ATM cards. |
One more thing. Beside PIN u actually need to break the encryption code, coz all data on your cards is encrypted usin latest industry standard. Now i dont wanna say that's impossible, but u need to hook up cell to pc and to a little bit of reverse enginering. Not something that every pc user know how to do + it's time consuming too. |
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| glob_bash |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
If I need to carry cash, why not carry a wallet? If I need a wallet, why not keep my ATM and credit cards on there, rather than on a computer where someone else could *potentially* gain access to them? Security is such a HUGE issue with digital technology that few if any people who use it seem to be aware of. But identity theft is on the rise here, and moving all of our personal information to a COMMUNICATION device certainly cannot alleviate the problem. |
Just to let u know, your card are stored on your cell phone, no third party devices involved, so no need to worry about someone else stealing your cards without your knoweldge.
Now how's that for an answer? ;) |
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| rabbitjoker |
AFAIK PIN numbers are not stored on the card.
The PIN is punched in and then compared during the transaction (either directly or via check-bit). |
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| glob_bash |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
Bluetooth would just provide the interface with ATM network. A celluar network could do the same, as could any of the WiLAN standards, as could IR, a phone-coupler, etc.
The connection to the ATM network is least important part.
IMO - the most important aspect of this is the use of already used, standardized and relatively-secure technologies (SMS, ATM networks, etc).
glob_bash - although building your own (Java based?) application to run on the phone is a good option - I think it makes it much more complex then need be (since SMS and ATM already exist and work so well). Further without a clear revenue stream for the mobile network provider and bank, it's going to be hard to get them to bother with implementing or signing on to something like this. |
RJ - you r right, application is Java based and its in test phase right now.
For a revenue stream - be the first kind on the block to have new gadget for sure can improve your customer base. Beside that, application is so flexible that it can be used for lot more than making payments. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by glob_bash
For a revenue stream - be the first kind on the block to have new gadget for sure can improve your customer base. Beside that, application is so flexible that it can be used for lot more than making payments. |
Sounds good. I know I will lobby Mobility to pick it up - or sign up for test usage once it is beta'd (I've beta'd a number of new services for Mobility).
Good thinking on the open architecture aspect. The more it can do (with simple UI modifications) the more valuable it will be.
It will be awesome to have something like this available in Canada. I'm sick of my europe-mobile envy.. ;)
Keep us up to date - I can't wait to try it! :) |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
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Dude I gave you my reasons, I answered your questions, but as far as I'm concerned this issue isn't really up for debate. Your logic may work for Sweden, but most of what I said is true for most of Europe, especially Scandinavian Europe, so it's senseless to argue because we're talking about different things.
As for the point about stealing wallets - people keep their wallets in their pockets or some place on their person. Cell phones, on the other hand, get passed around or left lying around all the time, especially in Europe (my parents have told me many stories about how total strangers let them make calls).
I'll summarize the rest - you're peeking about 50 years into the future without a concrete concept of how we're going to get there. You're making a couple of assumptions such as:
1. Everybody will have one of these types of phones;
2. There will be coverage everywhere;
3. There will be heavy government restrictions on the system.
Now as a rule, I would never EVER propose #3 as a solution to ANY problem, and you should know that. But even so, neither #1, #2, or #3 are in place right now or showing any sign of being in place in the near future. In order for a system like this to be viable, Canada (and more importantly the USA) would need to have the same "cell phone culture" that you spoke of earlier, and it simply doesn't, and probably never will. North America is not Europe, we aren't turning into Europe, if anything Europe is turning into us.
Let's face it, people want this because it's cool, not because it's useful.
EOD. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Dude I gave you my reasons, I answered your questions, but as far as I'm concerned this issue isn't really up for debate. Your logic may work for Sweden, but most of what I said is true for most of Europe, especially Scandinavian Europe, so it's senseless to argue because we're talking about different things.
As for the point about stealing wallets - people keep their wallets in their pockets or some place on their person. Cell phones, on the other hand, get passed around or left lying around all the time, especially in Europe (my parents have told me many stories about how total strangers let them make calls).
I'll summarize the rest - you're peeking about 50 years into the future without a concrete concept of how we're going to get there. You're making a couple of assumptions such as:
1. Everybody will have one of these types of phones;
2. There will be coverage everywhere;
3. There will be heavy government restrictions on the system.
Now as a rule, I would never EVER propose #3 as a solution to ANY problem, and you should know that. But even so, neither #1, #2, or #3 are in place right now or showing any sign of being in place in the near future. In order for a system like this to be viable, Canada (and more importantly the USA) would need to have the same "cell phone culture" that you spoke of earlier, and it simply doesn't, and probably never will. North America is not Europe, we aren't turning into Europe, if anything Europe is turning into us.
Let's face it, people want this because it's cool, not because it's useful.
EOD. |
true that is in the future. its not like i excpect this to happen tomorrow. but i actually do think it will happen.
as for north america and cell phones, i really do think it will come to you too, it will just take time. cell phones are a big technical step forward compared to landlines, and north america will realize that sooner or later. it kinda reminds me of people in sweden 7-8 years ago. many people didnt think they would need a cell phone (like in canada today), nowadays we have more cell phones in use than we have people.
"Your logic may work for Sweden, but most of what I said is true for most of Europe, especially Scandinavian Europe, so it's senseless to argue because we're talking about different things."
sweden is like 50% of scandinavian europe? you meant "non scandinavian" right? otherwise you confuse me even more. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
sweden is like 50% of scandinavian europe? you meant "non scandinavian" right? otherwise you confuse me even more. |
Yes, sorry. :p
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right, only time will tell. But one thing I'm sure about is that this thing is not going to be too useful unless and until cell phones are household items and plans are dirt cheap like they are in Europe.
I thought of something else, too. Some people, when they go to parties, intentionally minimize the amount of cash they take so they don't spend too much (i.e. when drunk). If your dream were a reality, that could be another con, i.e. people would have to be thinking 24/7 about how much they're spending rather than just taking a certain amount of money out of the ATM each week. I personally don't have this problem with money management, but I know that many people do. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Yes, sorry. :p
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right, only time will tell. But one thing I'm sure about is that this thing is not going to be too useful unless and until cell phones are household items and plans are dirt cheap like they are in Europe.
I thought of something else, too. Some people, when they go to parties, intentionally minimize the amount of cash they take so they don't spend too much (i.e. when drunk). If your dream were a reality, that could be another con, i.e. people would have to be thinking 24/7 about how much they're spending rather than just taking a certain amount of money out of the ATM each week. I personally don't have this problem with money management, but I know that many people do. |
i bet you a beer that in seven years Canada will have more cell phones than people :p
a solution to your problem might be to have a built in restriction. so that it only have access to a certain account, and on that account you only put in a limited amount of money. You get my idea? its not like it would be a big problem. |
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