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Do you plan out a tune before you start putting it together?
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| Zombie0915 |
Lately I have gotten a bit interested in the life cycle of a music production from the beginning to the end. I'm looking for some advice on the song creation process itself, which doesnt seem to be talked about nearly as often as the specific parts of the process. I realize that this sort of thing can be done in many ways, but the ways im most concerned about are the ones that have been successfull so far. I understand the inportance of everybody having their own original ideas and people not copying each other, but at the same time I think that we could learn alot by discussing how a successful music project is organized and completed.
I'm one of those people who has a bunch of random bad sounding clips and a couple really awful short jingles that are no good for sharing with anybody.
So im trying to rethink my methods so that I can actually get a real song one of these days, I'm trying to find a good way to divide up the task, so that I can get better at the parts im not good at yet, and so that I can make something that is more complete. I often get to points in a song where I just go blank and cant figure out what to do next, I'm thinking that if I had a better method of organising the project then this might happen less.
So I would like to know the general process that some of you follow when you want to make a song. I'm thinking that the "just sit down and start making noise" approach only works for some people, and that the rest have some sort of system they follow.
Here's a sort of hypothetical version of what im looking for:
Brainstorming - what sort of ideas are necessary to have before one can even think about making a tune?
Composition - Is the basic structure of the song made first, then the details? or is the whole piece made chronologicaly?
Sound Design - Do you have a selection of samples and patches ready to go before you have the tune of the music laid down? or do you create them as needed while composing?
Effects, mastering, etc - When does this stuff fit in, is it helpful to have the basic sound of the track made before one tries to add effects? Are the effects put together before the composition?
Again, I understand that there are many different approaches to this sort of thing, but mine isn't working so I want to gather some new ways to get this stuff accomplished and pick which ones work best for me, so there is no need to argue over which one is better or to type out your philosophy on how sharing this sort of information undermines a musician's originality.
Here's the basic approach I'm taking now which I'm hoping to improve:
Brainstorming
First, I'll think of something that I think sounds cool, usually this is a lead melody, sometimes it is a bass or an unusual rythm. I can come up with some nice music in my head, but I can't come up with a full composition, what usually happens is that I can imagine a few small elements of the sound, a general theme of the tune, and the desired reactions that I want people to have when they hear it.
Planning
I dont really do much in this phase and im trying to get better. I find that I forget alot of the stuff I think of before I can manage to get it to come out of the speakers. I like to fire up some software and pick a few presents and stuff that remotely resemble what im going for, and I try and put together a sort of mock-up track before I forget my ideas, usually in this mock up I manage to get a basic melody, but it sounds very imcomplete and when I try to build the song around this mock up it almost always sounds like crap. I've heard from some things I've read that building an entire song around a few elements is a bad idea, and that people should come up with each and every element of the song before laying it out.
I'd like some input on some of the better methods for the initial design of a song. All I can manage to do so far is to record myself making some sort of noise, that I want to try and capture in my production. When I think of a tune though it isnt always obvios to me how to go about making it, alot of time I will try and write down the theme and mood and stuff that I am going for, but once I start plugging away at my equipment, I will forget my direction and my plans dont help me get it back very much. There just has to be a better way to go about the design of a tune. I wanna hear what you guys are doing, do you have patterns written on napkins? do you walk around humming melodies that you think of all day and just tap them out on your keyboard? how does designing a tune work?
Composition
Before I go picking samples and programming synths I like to have the notes all layed out. I'm thinking the only way I can get better at laying out melodies and triggering automations is by just practicing, but I would appreciate some more hints on what information needs to be decided and implemented before it is time to compose the tune.
Sound Design
What I need to know here most is when is it time to start worrying about. Should I be designing sounds before I have my song ideas put together and loading them as I need them in a production? Or should I already have a basig idea of the timbres I want and implement them as I compose? This seems like something that could be done either way, but I want to hear several methods that have proven to be successful to that I can see which one works better for me, currently I do my tweaking after I have made a sort of mock-up of my song, and I'm getting better at getting the sounds I wan, but it is happening really slowly.
Effects + mixing
I really havent even thought of these things at all yet, I apply the occasional reverb or compress, but other then that I have no idea how to go about this sort of thing. From what I gathered so far from searching(believe it or not I did alot of searching before posting this) this appears to be something that happens in the final stage of the process, but as the song is being composed the producer also has to make sure that the things sound good together.
So how do you divide up the task of creating a song, which parts come first, which are most important?
I hope we can come up with some constructive ideas with this thread. |
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| messytechie |
I think with all those questions you have completely summed up all the difficulties of producing, and explained why we all hammer away hour after hour to attempt to perfect it.
TBH - I couldn't give you an answer for any of those questions - as each is different for each tune I make. |
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| Derivative |
me personally - i dont plan any songs. if it happens it happens. if it works. it works. if not. i try again until it does. usually the only premise ill start from is a feeling. usually if i hear another song which i love or ive had a great night out or something which just gets me fired up and happy - ill sit down and try to put some of that energy into a song. i dont consciously think it at the time. it just feels like the best time to write a song (when you are overflowing with ideas and you quickly wanna sketch out some of them before you lose them). i prefer to work on impulse because the occassions in which i have thought out a song from the beginning to the end, ive tended to overwork things. nothing i write ever goes to plan. i never recreate THAT sound in my head. i often end up chasing those ideas, failing to realise them, and ultimately some of the tunes i end up with as a result have a kind of energy aswell. just a different kind of energy and one that was not intentional. i guess you could say i work by stumbling from accident to accident.
when i used to do painting i would never plan out a picture. i wouldnt really even think about it and i wouldnt really be able to visualise the end product at the start. even if i did - i guarantee it would turn out differently. and id find something i like about that difference. and get carried away with that. etc. etc.
i think its both a blessing and a curse that we cannot perfectly get that sound in our head. i get the impression it would become sterile. i think what i like most about songs and one which i find the hardest to achieve is the accidental qualities. the unforseen elements of a song that just 'work.' a drum and bass breakdown where the drummer accidentally hits a snare late and it tumbles into the next phrase. sometimes it just sounds great and you neverp planned it or thought to do it. |
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| Zombie0915 |
Well that answers some things, but still isn't very clear about some others.
So you have a feeling that you want to make come from your sound, but where do you go from there? How do you go about reporducing that feeling with your arrangement. This seems like something that would vary depending on the particualar idea behind the song, but in general, how do these projects flow from an idea of a feeling to a finished track? I guess I need more detail about how one goes about stumbling from accident to accident in the right direction.
Do you write your melodies or program your synths first? Do you devide the production process into any sort of phases or do you really just throw everything together on a whim?
If only there was some sort of time lapsed video one could watch of a person making a song, or even someoby around here that I could evesdrop on. |
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| kewlness |
this may seem simple and not really worth saying...
but name your track before starting to produce. And instead of naming it like a generic trance tune name, for ex. "Forgotten love", or "Last Call" or "Destiny" or whatever, try coming up with something imaginative. For example "Northern Wind", "Desert Sun", "Hyperdrive", "Rhythmic Pulse", "Inner Sanctum", "Aerodrive", "Heart of the Jungle" or something that gets you an idea of the atmosphere you want to create.
I say this again, but too many people are producing the same unimaginative fluff that you hear making up trance because they figure they listen to the music, pick up a copy of reason/FL... and think they can be the next great producer...
Being a good producer takes a lot more than having an idea in your head (although it helps)... you need inspiration to learn to try new things that haven't been done before, be willing to push new boundaries... to explore new emotions.. new atmospheres.. new styles.. new ideas...
Make whatever you want to produce... Don't make what you hear... Don't say I produce ____ genre of music... Just produce whatever you feel is right...
The other things such as composition, synth programming, mixing, etc.. you will learn in time... but inspiration is one thing you cannot learn... but you have to be willing to accept new challenges to further yourself as a producer |
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| Derivative |
| quote: | So you have a feeling that you want to make come from your sound, but where do you go from there? How do you go about reporducing that feeling with your arrangement. This seems like something that would vary depending on the particualar idea behind the song, but in general, how do these projects flow from an idea of a feeling to a finished track? I guess I need more detail about how one goes about stumbling from accident to accident in the right direction.
Do you write your melodies or program your synths first? Do you devide the production process into any sort of phases or do you really just throw everything together on a whim? |
i should really clarify. the feeling is just a spark. it gets the ball rolling. it sometimes changes whilst im working and sometimes by the end its a completely different feeling you get from the track. i dont really set out to reproduce a specific feeling but a feeling is normally the precursor the tunes i write. like i said, if i go out and hear some amazing tunes, it makes me want to write a song and it really motivates me to quickly try and capture that kind of energy. very good frame of mind to be in when you write a tune i think.
as for the order in which i do things. again - it varies. most of the time i will break everything down into little chunks because it makes things easier. ill normally go and write a kick drum and a bassline first then some hats. sometimes ill start making atmospheres and pads. sometimes ill have a really great idea for a riff and quickly get it into floops before i forget. theres no specific order that i adhere to all the time. again thoguh, working by this method can be hit and miss. you capture something with each little bit you start working on. overall im a bundle of ideas but am still figuring out how to get them all to work in a song and keep it tight.
i definitely divide production into phases. i will usually always work on drums in a separate flp file. ill take the kicks from the drum and in another flp file work out kick and bass combinations. ill do my leads in a separate flp and my pads. i have to do this because my PC cant handle the strain of me doing everything in one flp. so this is born out of necessity. if my PC was fast enough that i could do everything i do in realtime then i would probably be more spontaneous with regards to doing the works in a single flp in a short period of time.
i differ to kewlness in the sense that i always name songs after i write them. rather than try to chase a feeling or an atmosphere and try to recreate that feeling (which is never exact) ill write a song which started with some ideas. grew into something very different. then ill listen to the song and give it a name that feels most appropriate to how it sounds. im not saying this is a good way to work though - its just how i do it. however, i should say that my work is nearly always incomplete and theres nearly always somethign wrong with it. |
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| Zombie0915 |
yikes, so you are having the same troubles that I am apparently, maybe i shouldnt try and follow your method.;)
Having the right inspiration, coming up with new feelings and styles is all well and good, I'm well aware that these sorts of things make a good producer, but I'm looking more for a good way to do the work before I can worry about that sort of things.
So how does one start from nothing and end with a complete song?
Besides a song title and some motivation, what else needs to be ready before notes are laid out and sounds are designed? |
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| Zombie0915 |
Here are some quotes I dug up that sort of answer my questions
"Basehead - First i try to get an idea in my mind, some kind of mood for a
song. Then i throw some samples into ST3 that i think fit that
mood.. usually i fill 30-35 sample spaces. Then i spend a few
minutes, coming up with some kind of main chord prog/theme/hook
etc.. then i come up with an intro part in one of the next few
patterns.. and slowly build into the original pattern i wrote.
after that, i just keep advancing and doing variations on the
original.. and often make 2nd or 3rd parts that go well with the
first"
"Leinad - I usually decide which samples to use first. That can take alot of
time. I try to do most of the samples myself. Then I just down and
punch out some simple drums to have a base to build on. I try to get
some chords into action and start fiddling with the effects far too
early Smile After that I try to grasp the whole thing and decide where
the refrain should come, do the intro etc and add lead instruments
with all kind of effects needed. Then back to the drums again and
adjust the volume levels of everything so no instruments "drown" the
others and I try to vary the drum patterns so it won't get too
booring. And the the though part, give the whole thing a name Smile
Ofcourse I always try to do everything at once though Surprised"
"Nemesis - Well, I have a few ways actually... The most common is where I
load up a few chords and play around with them until I get
something that sounds pretty decent, or catchy, and then I build
up from there... Usually after the chords come the drums, and
then the bass and after I get a few patterns down, I start
writing an intro, and then a "B" part or the "A" part if I think
the existing patterns fit the "A" part better.." |
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| Floorfiller |
here is my take on the process...
i can tell you what i usually start out with is dreaming up an intro for a tune. i know a lot of people start with a melody, but to me...it's more important to come up with an intro that is great instead of tacking on some generic drum pattern as an intro. so literally i start with the intro whatever that may be. from there...really i listen to my tunes a lot and i try to just let the elements of the tune grow out of one another. just like when you listen to music in your headphones...you hear little things that you woud've done...well now is your chance to do it.
i guess i also kinda start out with the feel of the direction i want to go in because i think a lot of that is reflected in the intro of a track.
now as far as my programming and everything...well...i work slow and i try to get the sounds right as i go along because i want to hear the sounds work together and that's what drives my track. i think about when elements should be introduced and when this should happen etc. i don't start out with samples or soundbanks when i start a track...i like to build them myself as i go along.
of course i don't worry about all the sounds sounding perfect as i go along, but i'd like to have the general sounds down...i think that's important. i mean...otherwise how are you going to have things fuse together in the end? let's say you just take a bunch of different clips of parts of tunes and try and make a song out of it...well...nothing goes together...you just have a bunch of random junk. maybe you'll get ideas out of it, but i don't really see you making a full track out of them. and essentially that's why i start from the begining everytime...each tune is its own.
i usually try and add the effects as i go aswell and if i don't add them specifically...i at least have an idea of where they are going to go and what i might want them to sound like. i don't know that's just the way i do it hehehe...
really ideas and imaginaton are never my problem...my problems always seem to be the technology end of things. either i don't have a good enough computer (changing this weekend) or i can't get the sounds the way i want them to be (just stupid hehe)...etc etc...my problem is always the professional sound that i'm looking for because i don't want it to be amatuerish in anyway...i want it to be breathtakingly perfect... |
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| DickieThijssen |
| its all about your personal preferences |
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| Zombie0915 |
More searching brings more answers to quote:
| quote: | ive been struggling with this process for awhile as well. mostly because the majority of my songwriting skills up to this point were developed in the context of a punk power-trio, and i could quickly compose and play whatever jam came to mind on guitar, and the drummer and bassist would add their own parts accordingly. manipulating a sequencer, 2-3 synths, a drum machine, a sampler, and multiple effects all on my own doesnt come with the same immediate expressiveness.
that said, this is the technique ive come up with so far:
as soon as i get a jam in my head i compose the basic parts as quickly as possible before i forget it, drums first, then main synth, then whatever other elements might be of importance.
then i switch to working on shaping the sounds to their basic ideal characters. this involves getting the right drum samples, the right waveforms on the synths, basically outlining.
then back to songwriting: i try to come up with a good intro to lead into the jam i came up with, usually introducing a secondary melody and a sample or two to accent the build.
after creating a somewhat even transition from intro to jam, i give all the sounds another working-over. i get a great deal more specific about honing all the instruments, making everything sound smooth, adding effects, adding filters (and automating their movements if necessary). everything should be sounding about 75% of the way towards the way i want it by now.
back to songwriting: i compose whatever naturally follows the main jam, maybe a short second breakdown (this is where i have fun using my verse-prechorus-chorus-bridge-solos sequence writing skills), and compose a basic outro (something that i wouldnt mind mixing out of, basically).
back to sounds: i give everything a complete fine-tuning, and i add fills and effects everywhere possible in order to give character and keep things from sounding monotonous.
then comes the mixdown. i am still in the early stages of learning how to do a proper mixdown, so ask someone else |
the advice is starting to get really good, keep it coming if you can think of anything else that is helpful! |
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| Zombie0915 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DickieThijssen
its all about your personal preferences |
what are your personal preferences? |
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