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Is it normal that your mix clips when master limiter is off or do I mix wrong way?! (pg. 2)
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by thecYrus
well, why should you mix to 0db? it doesn't make any sense if you don't have enough headroom for the mastering and that's where you adjust the volume with limiter and compressors to get the loudest "tune".. |
Not necessarily. If you get everything compressed properly and balanced out during the mixdown, then very little post production is needed (if at all).
Mixing down to +3 on the master channel on Cubase does give ya a couple DB's to play with should it be needed. |
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| thecYrus |
yeah of course but the mastering engineers don't like to master tunes without headroom ;)
and beside that i prefer to master my tunes outside of cubase. |
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| alanzo |
I tend to not worry about it and my mixes come out clean. I have a Waves L2 and a Waves C4 on my master channel.
But if something is obviously too loud, the mix will come out sounding like and I'll lower whatever is the problem until it's at the right level. So everything naturally levels out at the right db when it sounds good.
There may still be a tiny bit of distortion or over limiting in my mixes, but a tiny amount is nothing to worry about so long as you can't hear it (it takes a good ear). |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dance123
Hi,
I have an essential question about mixing: when you're setting the levels to create your mix, is it a rule that you should be able to mix without having clipping in the master channel when you turn your master limiter off or is it normal that a mix clips then? What are the rules in mixing when setting levels etc..? Should you be able to mix without a master limiter or is that just not possible in practice?!
The problem is that from the moment I have a couple of sounds in a mix without using a limiter it always starts to clip in the master channel (I use Cubase SX by the way). Is this normal or am I doing something wrong, it's not like I am really pushing it, it's just when you add more sounds then the clipping starts if there is no limiter. The problem is I actually don't want the limiter because it alters the sound of your mix too much, it's just that I have to place one in the master channels or otherwise my mix gets out of control with clipping. What should I do?!
Can anybody please teach me how I should mix properly?
Thanks in advance for all good feedback! |
basically, your mixes shouldn't clip if you turn your limiter off, but if the limited mix sounds good, it is ok. then just don't turn the limiter off, and you'll be fine. when i make my mixes, my limiter is by default set to limit at -0.3dB, and if the mixes sound good, i don't even check if they clip with limiter off. that is the reason i put the limiter in the master chain in the first place.
if your limiter alters the sound too much, then get your levels down, or get your master level down until limiting does not affect your sound. but you should always have the limiter in your output chain, just check its gain reduction. |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
Not necessarily. If you get everything compressed properly and balanced out during the mixdown, then very little post production is needed (if at all).
Mixing down to +3 on the master channel on Cubase does give ya a couple DB's to play with should it be needed. |
ew ... DOWN to +3dB? what do you mean by that? |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dance123
Is it true that you can mix more above 0db without clipping distortion if you use 24 or 32bit Float in SX, or is this only true when you're recording stuff, so not mixing and that this could still give you clipping problems when you mixdown to a 16bit file?! |
no. clipping is clipping, no matter which bitdepth.
in digital, you CAN NOT mix hotter than 0 dB, whether it's 16bit, 24bit, 32bit or 64bit. |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dance123
Thanks for all the replies! I hope more will follow!
What you all say seems obvious that it shouldn't clip without limiter, however the problem is when I start with a kick (which are all normalized at 0db) and then add something, it doesn't really take much to get the clipping problems started if you know what I mean. Does that mean that you should always turn down the level of a 0db normalized kick?! I really would like to know this!
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yes. i mean, think about it for a moment. maximum signal level in digital domain is 0 dB. the FIRST sound you put in there is at 0 dB. so, as you add more signals (sounds), the level will definitely go up, not down, so clipping will definitely occur. if you want to make a gin-tonic in 3 dcl glass, and you pour 3 dcl of gin, how much tonic will you be able to put in before some of it will pour out? with alcohol, there is no limiter :D
it is better to start your mix with the kick at -6 dB. it is much easier to raise the master mix level than lowering individual levels, right?
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Second, what's the purpose of a limiter then? Shouldn't you use them while mixing?
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you can use them while mixing of course. but basically, nowadays limiters are used as loudness maximizers, which means that you introduce some signal gain with it, and limit the output, so the overall signal of the track is higher. basically, this means that limiter is used in the mastering process primarily, not in the mixing process.
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What would be interesting is if people would be so kind to post a screenshot here of the mixing window of a song you made and then perhaps post a small mp3 clip or something of that song so I can have a visual idea of how levels should normally be set! Could you please do this! It would really make things much clearer, cause I think I am mixing completely wrong. Thanks! |
set the levels so that no clipping occurs. it's that simple. start with kick lower than 0 dB (-6, -4, whatever), and go from there. |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by h.vox
no. clipping is clipping, no matter which bitdepth.
in digital, you CAN NOT mix hotter than 0 dB, whether it's 16bit, 24bit, 32bit or 64bit. |
But is really 0db? The master peak level readout on the master channel can read out +3, but it's NOT clipping because +3 isn't really +3. If you mix down (to two tracks) and the peak level reads +3 on the master channel, you'll actually have a little bit of headroom if you open up the resulting mix in another sound editor like Soundforge, Cool Edit, or whatever you use.
As I said earlier, the meters on some old DAT decks (notably Sony decks) were calibrated a couple DB lower than what the readout says. If you were hitting the peak on the meter, you were actually hitting -2 and your recording was just fine.
I've been recording digitally for over a decade now (whether it be to a DAT deck of recording into a computer), so I know that you can "tickle the red" (as some high profile pop/top-40 producers say) if its for a VERY short amount of time (10 milliseconds of less) and just barely "going over" (what would theoretically be about .5db over, I know it's not possible to go over 0db). |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
But is really 0db? The master peak level readout on the master channel can read out +3, but it's NOT clipping because +3 isn't really +3. If you mix down (to two tracks) and the peak level reads +3 on the master channel, you'll actually have a little bit of headroom if you open up the resulting mix in another sound editor like Soundforge, Cool Edit, or whatever you use.
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if 3 dB is not 3 dB, then how much is it? and who is lying here? then my guess is that it is not dBFS scale, but we are talking about dBFS scale right now, because cubase uses that one. the thing you are talking about here reminds me of standard analog tapes, with which there was a rule that you could drive the tape to 0 if tape is normal type, to 3 if tape was CrO2, and 6 if tape was metal type. is that it?
and that master channel which reads +3 you are talking about, which master is that? cubase? your mixer? something else? i am not trying to get on your nerves here, i really do not understand and want to clarify this.
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As I said earlier, the meters on some old DAT decks (notably Sony decks) were calibrated a couple DB lower than what the readout says. If you were hitting the peak on the meter, you were actually hitting -2 and your recording was just fine.
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i don't think it is a matter of calibration. as i remember, 0 dB is a level of 0.775 V, right? but that 0 dB is not the same as 0 dB in the cubase output, since scale in cubase is in dBFS - decibel Full Scale - for digital format.
and in digital format 0 dB means clipping, end of story. there is no such thing as over 0 dB in digital.
dB is a RELATIVE unit which means 30 dB is a completely meaningless unit unless we know what we relate to. if we say '-10 dB in digital domain' we know we are saying that the signal is 10 dB lower than the maximum level the digital equipment can handle. if we are talking 130 dB SPL, we are talking about 130 dB above the threshold of human hearing. and if we talk about tape, we talk about level relative to 0.775 V if i recall correctly. |
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| Derivative |
| quote: | no. clipping is clipping, no matter which bitdepth.
in digital, you CAN NOT mix hotter than 0 dB, whether it's 16bit, 24bit, 32bit or 64bit. |
you are right but i get where maytag is coming from. you know the dB meters in fl studio? they arent accurate. the meters in the mixer are off but quite alot so you can go over the red line quite a bit before you audibly start to clip. if you add a fruity dB meter to the FX channel the readout is about 4 dB lower than the mixer dB meter's readout. to make matters worse, the spectrum analysis tools i use (inspector) have a readout somewhere between the 2 but closer to the one you add to the FX channel.
ive recently started to master my tunes and i noticed this early on. on the master bus, even without a limiter i can go well into the red on the mixer dB meter but stay under 0 dB in inspector. i honestly dont know which one is right. so these days i do it by ear and cross reference it on various soundsytems from other people in my flat. |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
you are right but i get where maytag is coming from. you know the dB meters in fl studio? they arent accurate. the meters in the mixer are off but quite alot so you can go over the red line quite a bit before you audibly start to clip. if you add a fruity dB meter to the FX channel the readout is about 4 dB lower than the mixer dB meter's readout. to make matters worse, the spectrum analysis tools i use (inspector) have a readout somewhere between the 2 but closer to the one you add to the FX channel.
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well, that is something else. i use cubase and wavelab, and i believe meters in them are pretty much correct. :)
i do not know anything about fruity meters, but the limiter you use should give you some info about that .... download rms buddy (freeware plug) which will show you current and maximum peak and average rms level. that one should be pretty precise.
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ive recently started to master my tunes and i noticed this early on. on the master bus, even without a limiter i can go well into the red on the mixer dB meter but stay under 0 dB in inspector. i honestly dont know which one is right. so these days i do it by ear and cross reference it on various soundsytems from other people in my flat. |
i think the red on the fruity analyzer means that you are getting pretty close to clipping, when you hit the end of it, you reached 0 dB. basically, it is best to trust your wave editor. since i use cubase, i put tls maximizer at the end of master chain, and voxengo span and rms buddy afterwards (all three are freeware) to check for proper volumes and overall dynamics. maybe it would be wise for you to start using those plugs too. |
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| Luke Terry |
generally when i make a tune it clips, turn down the master out on fl, which just turns everything down evenly until it doesnt clip, then boost it externally as necessary
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