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Is it normal that your mix clips when master limiter is off or do I mix wrong way?! (pg. 3)
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by h.vox
if 3 dB is not 3 dB, then how much is it? and who is lying here? then my guess is that it is not dBFS scale, but we are talking about dBFS scale right now, because cubase uses that one. the thing you are talking about here reminds me of standard analog tapes, with which there was a rule that you could drive the tape to 0 if tape is normal type, to 3 if tape was CrO2, and 6 if tape was metal type. is that it? |
Exactly how much is it? I don't know, but all my recordings have the peak meter on the master channel (the L/R main outputs) reading +3. I know that this is safe because I'm not getting any audible distortion in my recordings. There may be some minute amounts of clipping, but it's certainly not audible.
As far as tape goes, you sort of have the right idea, but have a few details left out. Normal tape could be driven to 0db when metering with a VU meter. The peaks could actually be hitting quite a bit higher, as the VU is more of a average program meter.
| quote: | Originally posted by h.vox
and that master channel which reads +3 you are talking about, which master is that? cubase? your mixer? something else? i am not trying to get on your nerves here, i really do not understand and want to clarify this. |
The master channel of Cubase, the Left-Right main outputs.
| quote: | Originally posted by h.vox
i don't think it is a matter of calibration. as i remember, 0 dB is a level of 0.775 V, right? but that 0 dB is not the same as 0 dB in the cubase output, since scale in cubase is in dBFS - decibel Full Scale - for digital format.
and in digital format 0 dB means clipping, end of story. there is no such thing as over 0 dB in digital. |
I realize that there is no going over 0dbFS, but it is possible to clip a signal at 0dbFS for an extremely short period without any audible distortion.
The following track I recently finished had the peak meters on the main Cubase output levels peaking at +3. By your definition, there should be massive amounts of distortion in this signal, but there are not. I think that this should prove that the scale in Cubase is off a bit, on the master output channels.
http://www.djmaytag.com/audio/DJMay...ire_128kbps.mp3 |
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| RiCo |
| I like your production techniques, but this track is so boring and amateurish. Do you have anything good? You know, faster and more energetic? :) |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by RiCo
I like your production techniques, but this track is so boring and amateurish. Do you have anything good? You know, faster and more energetic? :) |
Interesting. I've gotten nothing but good reviews on it thus far. I mainly produce progressive acid house, so I don't really do much outside 128-132 bpm. It's a retro oriented (1992-ish era) tune that was made as simple as possible, inspired by the "Producers, A Call To Arms" thread here. I suppose if you weren't around for the early trance movement of the early 90's, then it may well be much harder to get into the acid sound.
What is good? It's all relative, you know. If you mean cookie cutter computer trance with all the standard cliches, then no. If you mean somwhat innovative and different, then yes.
Sentientamental
Locked And Fully Upright |
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| RiCo |
| No, not standard mainstream garbage. I mean...how do I explain this...do you have any evolving tracks? |
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| RiCo |
Sentientamental
Locked And Fully Upright
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That's what I'm talking about...where's the full track? |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by RiCo
Sentientamental
Locked And Fully Upright
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That's what I'm talking about...where's the full track? |
On my hard drive :D |
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| Derivative |
| quote: | | cookie cutter computer trance |
oh man. i wanted to change my custom title to 'cookie cutter computer trance pioneer' but it has too many characters :( |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
I realize that there is no going over 0dbFS, but it is possible to clip a signal at 0dbFS for an extremely short period without any audible distortion.
The following track I recently finished had the peak meters on the main Cubase output levels peaking at +3. By your definition, there should be massive amounts of distortion in this signal, but there are not. I think that this should prove that the scale in Cubase is off a bit, on the master output channels.
http://www.djmaytag.com/audio/DJMay...ire_128kbps.mp3 |
of course short clippings can be ok because human ear behaves like vu meter, but limiting below 0 dB is done because of some digital equipment. i have also seen a lot of speakers blown because clipping occured (ok, it was not directly digital clipping, but i do not like to risk that at all). anyway, digital cannot go over 0 dB - if it wants to go over there, it will clip. so why force those 0.2 or 0.3 dB since that difference is not really audible? |
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| Derivative |
maytag those tunes you posted are good but they audibly clip on my hifi speakers. they are fecking loud too - louder than mine.
despite that, the acid lines on sentientamental are ing sick! i love 303s. such a simple synthesizer and yet its capable of such a beautiful sound. i get some hoover fads now and then. sometimes i get an absynth fetish and i have to screw around with an evolving pad in the demo. but the 303 i always come back to and i bought bassline cuz i love my 303s too much :D what 303 type synth did you use to make those? share your secrets with us! |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
maytag those tunes you posted are good but they audibly clip on my hifi speakers. they are fecking loud too - louder than mine. |
Do you have any sort of EQ on the system? The "Fletcher-Munson EQ Curve" can really make a hi-fi crap out pretty quickly. Try it flat and see how that sounds.
Never noticed any distortion on my Alesis M1 Actives, headphones (either pair), or car stereo. There is a minimal amount of distortion applied to the bass drum, so I wonder if maybe you're hearing that?
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
despite that, the acid lines on sentientamental are ing sick! i love 303s. such a simple synthesizer and yet its capable of such a beautiful sound. i get some hoover fads now and then. sometimes i get an absynth fetish and i have to screw around with an evolving pad in the demo. but the 303 i always come back to and i bought bassline cuz i love my 303s too much :D what 303 type synth did you use to make those? share your secrets with us! |
Simple enough! I use Rebirth.
Glad ya liked the 303 lines I wrote! |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by h.vox
of course short clippings can be ok because human ear behaves like vu meter, but limiting below 0 dB is done because of some digital equipment. |
Analog to Digital converters like the ones on DAT decks, soundcard inputs, etc are MUCH more sensitive to clipping than the internal mixers of multitrackers like Cubase. That is the kind of equipment that you do indeed have to be very careful about not clipping the inputs.
| quote: | | Originally posted by h.vox i have also seen a lot of speakers blown because clipping occured (ok, it was not directly digital clipping, but i do not like to risk that at all). |
That is a TOTALLY different kind of clipping. Overdriving an amplifier adds bad distortion to the output and it overheats the voicecoils, making them either melt of lose their shape enough to make a "WHACK" type of sound come from the subwoofers.
If distortion is in THE SOURCE RECORDING, that won't make your amp clip, unless of course you add too much EQ or play it too loud. If recorded distortion were to cause people's amps to clip, then rock music would cause massive stereo outages worldwide from guitar players overdriving their amps! :D
| quote: | | Originally posted by h.vox anyway, digital cannot go over 0 dB - if it wants to go over there, it will clip. so why force those 0.2 or 0.3 dB since that difference is not really audible? |
Why not? You want to squeeze every last drop of loudness out of your mix, don't ya? |
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| h.vox |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
Analog to Digital converters like the ones on DAT decks, soundcard inputs, etc are MUCH more sensitive to clipping than the internal mixers of multitrackers like Cubase. That is the kind of equipment that you do indeed have to be very careful about not clipping the inputs.
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well it looks like it. maybe because cubase has 32bit engine behind all that, and dat does not.
anyway, i did misunderstand you. it is possible for cubase meter to show values above 0 dB which occurs as overdrive somehow, but the export cannot be over 0 dB, which we all already know, so we won't bother about that any more, shall we? :D
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That is a TOTALLY different kind of clipping. Overdriving an amplifier adds bad distortion to the output and it overheats the voicecoils, making them either melt of lose their shape enough to make a "WHACK" type of sound come from the subwoofers.
If distortion is in THE SOURCE RECORDING, that won't make your amp clip, unless of course you add too much EQ or play it too loud. If recorded distortion were to cause people's amps to clip, then rock music would cause massive stereo outages worldwide from guitar players overdriving their amps! :D
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tell me of a party where the music is not played too loud :)))))
especially homemade parties or small clubs with rented soundsystems.
btw guitar players cannot burn their cabinets because those cabinets have no tweeters :)
| quote: |
Why not? You want to squeeze every last drop of loudness out of your mix, don't ya? |
dunno, i hate when clipping occurs wether i hear it or not:)
and some people who know their business told me it is better to leave just a little bit of headroom, so i do.
and i provide energy to my tracks in some other fashion, not nailing them to 0 dB :) (not to say your way is wrong, of course)
btw listened to your track yesterday. unfortunately i did not remember to do that until 1 AM, so it had to be quiet. pretty good sounding, but not too much energy or excitement there .... and while it did sound pretty ok when played quietly, it looked awful when loaded in wavelab :)
even technasia techno track of 3 minutes had greater peak/RMS ratio :)
anyway, great thread. |
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