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This is how you protest transit fare hikes! (pg. 4)
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by karim
I'd love to see a source on this, considering it's being put on record.
:)
Karim |
It also depends on what u consider middle class.
Socialists usually consider middle class to have a much lower income than capitalists.
It's a subjective term. To me middle class means you have enough money to pay for food, shelter clothes and transportation. Any more than that is a bonus and any less is poor.
You see for a capitalist i have a pretty socialist view on what makes someone rich or poor. |
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| Jayx1 |
| PS: Karim, Nicaragua is actually a NORTH AMERICAN country, not a south american one. |
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| starsearcher |
eeerrmmm...i don't know what you guys are talking about (regard communism in Ukraine) but that to me sounds like a lotta BS :conf:
Life in Russia - or USSR back then was really not THAT bad at all :o |
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| ~Delicious~ |
| quote: | Originally posted by starsearcher
eeerrmmm...i don't know what you guys are talking about (regard communism in Ukraine) but that to me sounds like a lotta BS :conf:
Life in Russia - or USSR back then was really not THAT bad at all :o |
Really????
when did you leave? and WHY? |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
You are right about multinationals though. They should adhere to the same work and safety standards as the country they originate. But pay isnt part of that. When you can live off of 1000 pesos a month why should a company be obligated to pay $3000 dollars a month?
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Companies in Canada and the first world also train their employees with valuable skills. Many even provide education funds and benefits to help improve society. These multinational corporations overseas do not. In many cases, they feed amphetamines to their employees and put them into 14 hour work days 7 days a week. Here's your bowl of rice, now get back to work. Deplorable working conditions that these multinationals are responsible. And even if these factories do not belong to the corporation itself, the fact that they outsource labour to these factories is wrong. Until we create a system where people can clearly identify labour practices with the product (some type of seal on the shoe box from a trusted NGO that inspects workplace conditions to ensure they meet standards) then the situation will not improve. Until then, we in the first world will enjoy paying our $80 for shoes that costed them $3 to make, and Nike will be laughing all the way to the bank, at the expense of the 3rd world.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Communism (repressing people's freedom) is not the answer to anything and people like you scare the hell out of me. Go live under communism and then report back to me about what a utopian society it is. |
It's not a utopia by any means, it's better than the way many nations are operating now. Communism was flawed when it's world leaders wanted to rule the world. Their vision of an efficient society where nobody starved was skewed. Idealy, a free society with plenty of social benefits would be a utopia, however such a utopia doesn't come free, and none of these nations can afford it. THE COST OF FEEDING EVERYBODY IS CONTROLLING EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR MARKET TO MAKE SURE THE WEALTH IS DISTRIBUTED IN A WAY THAT AFFORDS EVERYBODY AT LEAST A STANDARD OF LIVING. That is communism. The capitalism that is raping these nations is ignoring the very poor.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Socialism breeds laziness and lack of incentive. Humans by nature are greedy. Socialism fails to take this in to account. If you can never get ahead or fall behind no matter what you why should you care about the work you do? The answer is you dont. |
If everyone in a socialist society works hard, the benefits are shown in long term prosperity. People in this very rushed society care about instant results, and that's not how it works in socialism. People working together for the sake of them and their neighbours rather than for themselves.
Bring a poor nation up to a certain standard, where you have efficient markets, and qualified workers and then let it compete in capitalist society. China's trying this by creating free market hot spots. Of course China has alot of poverty and ghetto's, but that is the situation when you have over a billion people for the government to take care of.
I personally love free markets, and the luxuries and opportunities that it affords me. My argument stems on me being convinced that some of these developing countries would be better off if they made themselves self sufficient, because as it stands, they aren't getting much better, and the gap between them and the first world is growing at an alarming rate.
:)
Karim |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by ~Delicious~
Dude, education? FREE? Do you know that I couldn't even get into University of my choice, because my mom didn't have 10000 dollars US to pay for the bribe to the examination committee? Mind you I graduated Highschool with a perfect diploma. Oh and the other thing, every good or excellent grade, even a C back there would cost you money. So How's that normal? How's that a better solution?
You're mistaking communism with dictatorship that we had while the government attempted to build a utopian society. How can you have Utopia when people live in fear?
During that "better" solution, the crime rates were higher than they are now. So believe you me, they're rebuilding the country from the ground up. Hopefully they'll be successful. |
Poland, when communist, had free education to qualified students. Or minimal cost which didn't break the bank.
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Karim |
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| starsearcher |
| quote: | Originally posted by ~Delicious~
Really????
when did you leave? and WHY? |
I moved to Israel with my family when I was really young...like 6-7 years old. Why - well my grandfather is Jewish and it was a big deal for him when the doors opened to move to Israel so most of my family (his brothers and etc) did too.
In fact I'm not really sure if things are better at all now than what they were before. Now there is a very small group of extremely corrupt people that are holding the majority of power (both financial and sometimes political) in the country...
In fact Putin just the other day said that the collapse of the Soviet Union is "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century"...and although he's an ex KGB weasel, and you never know what he's really up to...he's probabbly right about that.
Anyway bottom line is - I don't know about Ukraine but things were never as bad as some might describe here back in the days of the USSR. |
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| Jayx1 |
The gap between developing nations and the industrialized world is closing. Look to china, india, and may parts of south america for proof of this. In fact the reason why gas prices are so high is because of the rapid growth in india and asia.
As for china, many people died and suffered under mao and its only by opening the doors to multinationals that they have managed to grow richer. In fact it wasnt long ago that the sweat shops you mention were actually in china. They probably do still exist somewhat but there is no denying that china is emerging from poverty thanks to capitalism.
As i said socialism doesnt work because people desire to get ahead. Greed is a human trait that is not factored into socialism. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by karim
Poland, when communist, had free education to qualified students. Or minimal cost which didn't break the bank.
:)
Karim |
But living in poland doesnt qualify you to be an expert on communism ;) |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Ok so what does then?
What qualifies you? |
The study of political science and various sources I have read. Doesn't make me fully qualified, but it does provide me the opportunity to present an argument with at least some merit.
I pointed out your "I have a friend from..." point in your argument because more often then not, in arguments, this doesn't necessarily constitute a strong one. Not specific to ~Delicious~, but many times, the "I know somebody that..." statement holds very little credibility. I've seen an entire documentary on people in russia who are in worse shape now after the fall of communism, that have a very positive impression of communism.
~Delicious~, you might have a certain impression on communism, but there are people who share your background but don't share your views.
:)
Karim |
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| starsearcher |
| Gas prices have nothing to do with developments in Asia...gas prices are controlled by OPEC who do as they please to influence nations and world events |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
PS: Karim, Nicaragua is actually a NORTH AMERICAN country, not a south american one. |
Then I'm sure the country in the movie was Equador. I remember them mentioning a south american nation, however the name slipped my mind.
:)
Karim |
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