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Canada could soon be gone (pg. 4)
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by ChadVanDyk
Separatism is alive and well in Alberta. Especially, among young, educated professionals who understand that Ottawa has no reverence or interest in understanding western issues. Take this basic analogy under consideration.
Let's say your family has always lived in the same house and moving is out of the question because it's the most beautiful, prosperous place on earth. Your house is in a neighborhood, and the neighborhood is governed by your neighbor, simply because he has the most children. The neighbor lives three doors down, yet he never visits, and rarely calls. This neighbor makes the rules for all the residents, while only consulting his wife and children, never considering your opinion. Then, for the priveledge of living in this neighborhood, and being under his rule, he asks you to give him a pile of money. In the beginning, you like the neighborhood, and want to be neighborly so you give him money year after year, putting up with neglect, stupid decisions and plain ignorance. After a while, you start to notice that the neighbor is irresponsibly wasting your money and giving your money to other neighbors who aren't being fiscally responsible. The next year the neighbor then comes to you and asks you for even more money. What would you do? I think it's only natural to contemplate the thought of halting the payment, putting up a fence, and telling the neighbor to go pound sand
I doubt separation will come to fruition in my lifetime, but please don't be naive and think that Albertans don't consider it. |
I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part.
Now, if Alberta wants a greater say in how the country is run the solution is quite simple.... support a party that will represent a balance of interests between all regions of the country or at very least Alberta and Ontario (because we have all the seats). Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility. I understand that Alberta is tired of being ignored, however, simply whining that the idiots in Ontario always vote Liberal won't help you. Much like the west votes CPC because they represent their interests Ontario votes Liberal because they look out for Ontario. This is only natural. So long as this continues the west will always play second fiddle in parliment. Fair? Maybe not. True? Absolutely.
Of course the other option is to find a way to drastically increase your population, however, this will likely take quite a while. |
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| EvilTree |
| ^Actually, the Reform party was seen as the 'western' party... Makes you wonder... |
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| MarkT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part.
Now, if Alberta wants a greater say in how the country is run the solution is quite simple.... support a party that will represent a balance of interests between all regions of the country or at very least Alberta and Ontario (because we have all the seats). Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility. I understand that Alberta is tired of being ignored, however, simply whining that the idiots in Ontario always vote Liberal won't help you. Much like the west votes CPC because they represent their interests Ontario votes Liberal because they look out for Ontario. This is only natural. So long as this continues the west will always play second fiddle in parliment. Fair? Maybe not. True? Absolutely.
Of course the other option is to find a way to drastically increase your population, however, this will likely take quite a while. |
well said. |
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| ShadoWolf |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility. |
Wrong, a Red Tory leader would lose the West. Case in point: Joe Clark's PC Party from 1998-2003 (arguably also Mulroney/Campbell in 1993).
Playing regions against each other is a Lieberal game. It's time to end it.
Lieberals/Red Tories try to appease Quebec - that's the wrong approach, as it further alienates the West. What Harper is proposing is giving Quebec or any other province what's rightfully theirs under the British North America Act. If the federal government stops interfering in matters under provincial jurisdiction, we'd be half way to solving the separatist problem. All of a sudden, the conditions would be right to amend the Constitution: bring in a Triple-E senate and have Quebec sign the Constitution. Every region would benefit - that's the right approach.
BTW, Harper's values are more in tune with Ontario's than Martin outside of Toronto. Martin is way outside of the mainstream on issues like same-sex marriage.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politic...16/1355517.html |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part.
Now, if Alberta wants a greater say in how the country is run the solution is quite simple.... support a party that will represent a balance of interests between all regions of the country or at very least Alberta and Ontario (because we have all the seats). Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility. I understand that Alberta is tired of being ignored, however, simply whining that the idiots in Ontario always vote Liberal won't help you. Much like the west votes CPC because they represent their interests Ontario votes Liberal because they look out for Ontario. This is only natural. So long as this continues the west will always play second fiddle in parliment. Fair? Maybe not. True? Absolutely.
Of course the other option is to find a way to drastically increase your population, however, this will likely take quite a while. |
I was about to write the same along these lines...
When you're poor, you want in, when rich, you want out. |
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| tempoman |
Being from Calgary the Alberta Separtist movement is overplayed in the media and by Ralph Klein. No one I know that lives here talks steadfastly about seperatism nor do I want to seperate. Its overblown because Klein is always making comments on how Alberta doesn't want to give its money to Ottawa and for Ottawa to back off.
Merely saying for Alberta to have its say, we should vote red, is a comment that fuels resent and sepratism. It comes off as very arrogant (Just like Ralph Klein ;) ). If the west voted red there would be little opposition in parliament (which I believe is not very good). In my opinion Alberta seperatism is way overblown and is a hollow threat. |
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| ChadVanDyk |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
I was about to write the same along these lines...
When you're poor, you want in, when rich, you want out. |
I'm not sure we ever wanted in. Alberta has been prosperous since the second World War, excluding the early 80's due to the NEP and overall global economic downturn. Without federal intervention, we will continue to be rich until long after I die. |
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| ChadVanDyk |
| quote: | Originally posted by tempoman
Being from Calgary the Alberta Separtist movement is overplayed in the media and by Ralph Klein. No one I know that lives here talks steadfastly about seperatism nor do I want to seperate. Its overblown because Klein is always making comments on how Alberta doesn't want to give its money to Ottawa and for Ottawa to back off.
Merely saying for Alberta to have its say, we should vote red, is a comment that fuels resent and sepratism. It comes off as very arrogant (Just like Ralph Klein ;) ). If the west voted red there would be little opposition in parliament (which I believe is not very good). In my opinion Alberta seperatism is way overblown and is a hollow threat. |
I believe everything in the media is overhyped..it's their job. I'm not sure what kind of circles you run in and given the average demographic of TA, you're probably new to your career or in school so I wouldn't expect many of your mates expelling the benefits of separatism. However, if you spoke with the majority of Albertans between 30-65, especially rural Albertans, I'm sure you'll find a solid third would support separation. As for voting red, it was a red PC leader being referenced earlier in the thread, Alberta will never vote Liberal...never. |
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| pinkphantasm |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part.
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The oil in Alberta is going to take a very long time to dry up - The tar sands are the second largest bitumen oil reserve on the planet. If oil becomes scarce enough and the price of oil rises enough, it will become feasible to exploit it.
And, when the oil does dry up, Alberta will be a province with a massive surplus and other industries to subsist on (engineering, construction, medical research/biotechnology, agriculture, information/communication technologies). Oil's not the only industry in the West. |
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| tempoman |
| quote: | Originally posted by ChadVanDyk
I believe everything in the media is overhyped..it's their job. I'm not sure what kind of circles you run in and given the average demographic of TA, you're probably new to your career or in school so I wouldn't expect many of your mates expelling the benefits of separatism. However, if you spoke with the majority of Albertans between 30-65, especially rural Albertans, I'm sure you'll find a solid third would support separation. As for voting red, it was a red PC leader being referenced earlier in the thread, Alberta will never vote Liberal...never. |
You got me. 19 and third year university student. I'll get back to you when I am making a reasonable amount of money in Alberta ;) But my parents both fit in the age demographic and one is an engineer. I've never hear much about seperatism except what comes from the media. I worked in and around Grand Praire this summer and my co-workers (roughnecks) never mentioned much either. Maybe because they didn't vote :) |
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| ChadVanDyk |
| quote: | Originally posted by tempoman
You got me. 19 and third year university student. I'll get back to you when I am making a reasonable amount of money in Alberta ;) But my parents both fit in the age demographic and one is an engineer. I've never hear much about seperatism except what comes from the media. I worked in and around Grand Praire this summer and my co-workers (roughnecks) never mentioned much either. Maybe because they didn't vote :) |
You should ask your dad about his thoughts on the subject. Might be interesting dinner conversation. Poor bastard...stuck in Grande Prairie for the summer with rigpigs. I'm sure politics didn't come up at "Showgirls". ;) |
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| DigiNut |
| Ah, good old UNfair.org, dedicated to criticizing any media that doesn't follow the liberal status quo. For a while I thought I'd seen the last of that trash pile, but no, leave it to TOTA's Marxists to remind me that it still exists... |
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