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"For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!" - Kenyan Economics Expert (pg. 4)
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by karim
The problem with foreign investment is that it only happens if the investors stand to gain something out of it. Who's going to build the roads? the schools, etc?
IF you give the nation debt relief, and STOP giving them aide, where will they steal the money from? That's when foreign investors can increase the GDP, that's when a tax system can be put into place, and if there is to be a credible government in any given nation, that's where they take this tax revenue and feed it into public services, rather than paying off debt.
:)
Karim |
Why do socialists always think the government is the answer? It's not. Especially not in those countries. Of course there is something in it for the companies. And at first there will be minimal benefit to the local area, but as foreign capital expands workers will demand more and things will progress. Just like it did in asia. China is building so much infrastructure that it is driving up the price of steel around the world and causing steel shortages. All the communist government did was open the door to private investment, nothing less and nothing more. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Durafei
Want to help Africa ?? Travel there !
By spending money in local shops, in local restaurants, in local hotels you are giving money directly to the locals, and encouraging work !
You are also getting something in return - you are exploring the world, and seeing things you only normally see in movies. Travel to Africa ! |
but dont tip them or give handouts. They told us in argentina not to do this with poor people because it encourages them to beg instead of look for real work. And they see tipping the same as handouts as well. Which is pretty much how ive always viewed tipping, especially at the bar or in a taxi. |
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| Durafei |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
but dont tip them or give handouts. They told us in argentina not to do this with poor people because it encourages them to beg instead of look for real work. And they see tipping the same as handouts as well. Which is pretty much how ive always viewed tipping, especially at the bar or in a taxi. |
Tips should be given based on performance. |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Why do socialists always think the government is the answer? It's not. Especially not in those countries. Of course there is something in it for the companies. And at first there will be minimal benefit to the local area, but as foreign capital expands workers will demand more and things will progress. Just like it did in asia. China is building so much infrastructure that it is driving up the price of steel around the world and causing steel shortages. All the communist government did was open the door to private investment, nothing less and nothing more. |
You're so quick to call me a socialist. I believe in the right BALANCE. You use China as an example of how a nation can go from rags to riches but then again, every step of China's development has been government monitored and controlled. Only now are they opening the markets to capitalism. They did far more than just "open the door". Infact, they will become a world power thanks to their governments control of their currencies value.
As people demand roads, schools, hospitals, where do you think they'll turn to? These companies aren't gonna be so quick to build them as you might think. They'd turn to a government. An accountable, credible, democratically elected government. You can snicker at that all you'd like, but it's more achievable than perfect order through completely free world markets.
:)
Karim |
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| Jayx1 |
| in most societies tips are reserved for only the top top of service usually only at a restaurant. Unless the resort is set up for north americans. Then we get hosed. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by karim
You're so quick to call me a socialist. I believe in the right BALANCE. You use China as an example of how a nation can go from rags to riches but then again, every step of China's development has been government monitored and controlled. Only now are they opening the markets to capitalism. They did far more than just "open the door". Infact, they will become a world power thanks to their governments control of their currencies value.
As people demand roads, schools, hospitals, where do you think they'll turn to? These companies aren't gonna be so quick to build them as you might think. They'd turn to a government. An accountable, credible, democratically elected government. You can snicker at that all you'd like, but it's more achievable than perfect order through completely free world markets.
:)
Karim |
Oh sure the government is building these...but tell me, how are they able to suddenly afford it? |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Oh sure the government is building these...but tell me, how are they able to suddenly afford it? |
Through the taxes that their citizens pay after getting jobs through foreign investment. I'm not against foreign investment by any means. Hence the reason I believe in debt relief, because it's one less burden on the governments spending, in turn having more money flow into public infastructure. And you'd better believe that if the people are paying for it, they'd not allow a corrupt government wasting their money.
I feel I've completed my point. DEBT RELIEF IS GOOD.
:)
Karim |
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| Jayx1 |
no way, debt relief now would only lessen the incentive for governments to try and attract foreign investment. Why should they when they are busy stealing from what we give them? And later on when the capital flows from foreign investment, they will be in a position to pay us back anyways.
They can tax companies and citizens alike. But first the money has to be brought there. This is what geldolf and the like should be advocating. Not pie in the sky BS. The only problem is that the more we import from these places, the poorer we will become. So it has to be done delicately.
Just because a celebrity has something to say doesnt mean its right. |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
no way, debt relief now would only lessen the incentive for governments to try and attract foreign investment. Why should they when they are busy stealing from what we give them? And later on when the capital flows from foreign investment, they will be in a position to pay us back anyways.
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Are you kidding me? The USA can't even pay it's debts. Interest will drown Africa like you wouldn't believe. The foreign investors won't pay the debt. The cash in the peoples pockets won't pay their debt. The burden lies on the government, who, if they ever were to pay the debt, would eventually have to charge taxes to the people either way. Debt relief means starting off closer to a surplus than a deficit, which is a favorable position for a developing nation. There's no argument to this.
:)
Karim |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by karim
The USA can't even pay it's debts. |
Uh.... source?
Anyway, I've read all your posts and carefully considered them and I get the impression that you've got your finger pointed squarely at the foreign aid itself as the main source of the problem, because it is being "stolen" or otherwise manipulated.
Foreign aid has no doubt contributed to the problems in Africa but it certainly isn't *the* problem. The problem is the gang of kleptocratic Marxist dictators that have been funneling that foreign aid money into their Swiss bank accounts or using it to pay off snooping authorities (not to mention the UN). Debt cancellation (I refuse to call it debt "relief") is merely another form of subsidy and will only encourage them to take out more unrepayable loans. And after all, that's what they are: LOANS. Is everybody here familiar with that concept?
Imagine that you racked up $5000 on your VISA and got a letter from the bank next month saying "we know you're a good guy and you just had a rough month, so we're erasing your debt and interest records". Ask yourself honestly - would you then proceed to make a conscientious effort to be more fiscally responsible, or would you think to yourself, "hey, I was saving up $5000 to pay that VISA bill, might as well buy a new plasma TV with that extra cash".
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Here are some real, workable ways to help out Africa:
1. As Ilyia mentioned, promote tourism there! There is no better form of foreign investment than tourism.
2. Lower the trade barriers. Trade protectionism in the EU alone sucks up nearly $700 billion from "poor" countries. In the US I believe it is something like $500 billion. I shudder to think of what the figure from Canada is, given our ridiculous customs system.
3. Reduce domestic subsidies, especially on agriculture. Handouts to the Canadian Wheat Board and other such entities help to lower domestic costs, but since they come out of our taxes, they provide no tangible benefit to our society. On the other hand, the "intermediate" effect (subsidized industries being able to sell their goods at lower costs) makes it nearly impossible for foreign countries who depend on those markets - like Africa - to compete. (That is, after all, the whole point of trade protectionism and subsidies, but rather than helping us, it only serves to hurt the countries that our hearts bleed daily over).
I hope this has been enlightening.
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| amb_ |
| quote: | Just to play devil's advocate, here are three points on the other side that you might want to consider:
1) The debt isn't necessarily owed to the Canadian government; much of it is owed to companies, such as banks. In turn, these companies are owned by shareholders, e.g. people like you and me. Even if you or your family don't own shares in companies directly, the chances are that you or your family's pension fund does have some of these shares. It was shareholder's money that was lent to these countries in the first place – shouldn't they have a say about whether they are happy to give up the idea of ever getting it back?
2) Most countries have debt of some sort – it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Canada and the US - both very developed countries - have plenty of debt. Mostly it's a way of smoothing out short-term imbalances in the amount of money coming in versus the amount going out. To be able to get the best borrowing rates, countries have to build up a track record of making repayments. It's like you or me wanting to get a good deal on our mortgages – if we can build up a good credit history by paying our bills on time, this will pay us back because we will be seen as less risky customers, and so banks will offer us better rates.
It's certainly not true for every country, but for countries further along the development track, they might not feel it's in their interest to stop making payments (this is especially relevant with some of the Tsunami-hit countries in Asia, which are quite highly developed)
3) Some people feel that much of the money lent to developing countries was wasted. They feel that very little of the money lent has actually been spent on things like healthcare and education – instead, a lot of it went into the pockets of corrupt governments, a lot of it was spent on weapons and arms, and some more on 'flagship' projects like national airlines, airports, and stadiums, that don't really benefit the local people. Cancelling the debt repayments therefore doesn't mean that more would be spent on education or healthcare – it would just mean more money going the wrong place. This is the reason that so much emphasis has been put on auditing the funds donated to the Tsunami relief projects – people want to be very sure that their money actually goes to the cause they are donating it for, and not on e.g. buying new fighter planes! This might sound really distrustful, but remember that quite a few of the countries we are talking about are dictatorships, and/or rank highly in independent assessments of corruption. Have a look at the following website: http://www.icgg.org/corruption.cpi_2004_data.html for one organisation's rankings. |
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| karim |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Uh.... source?
Anyway, I've read all your posts and carefully considered them and I get the impression that you've got your finger pointed squarely at the foreign aid itself as the main source of the problem, because it is being "stolen" or otherwise manipulated.
Foreign aid has no doubt contributed to the problems in Africa but it certainly isn't *the* problem. The problem is the gang of kleptocratic Marxist dictators that have been funneling that foreign aid money into their Swiss bank accounts or using it to pay off snooping authorities (not to mention the UN). Debt cancellation (I refuse to call it debt "relief") is merely another form of subsidy and will only encourage them to take out more unrepayable loans. And after all, that's what they are: LOANS. Is everybody here familiar with that concept?
Imagine that you racked up $5000 on your VISA and got a letter from the bank next month saying "we know you're a good guy and you just had a rough month, so we're erasing your debt and interest records". Ask yourself honestly - would you then proceed to make a conscientious effort to be more fiscally responsible, or would you think to yourself, "hey, I was saving up $5000 to pay that VISA bill, might as well buy a new plasma TV with that extra cash".
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Well the USA is *capable* of paying their debts to the national bank et al. but they choose to hold one. The size of their debt only decreased in the midst of the dot.com boom. There's a big billboard in NYC that shows what the debt is in real time.
I brought up accountable governments in my posts. Governments that are democratically elected. I subtly mentioned that IF the people are the ones paying their taxes, they'd keep a closer eye on government spending. Yes, there are ways to hide corruption, but I find in true democracies where the people are given the freedom to overlook their governments actions, especially when it involves their (the taxpayers) money, it, in a way, regulates itself. This way, there's a mob of people who pay there taxes, and expect the government to deliver. The local media with the duty of reporting what their government is doing for the people would help in this. And of course, debt relief ONLY be granted if nations meet certain guidelines(Like I'm sure the US would write up a HUGE guidline for all these nations to meet if they were to ever grant debt relief).
To bring about effective and efficient growth, an accountable democracy should be the goal.
P.S. I agree with everything you said in your plan. I'm still an advocate of debt relief.
:)
Karim |
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