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Muslim 'Moderates' And Terrorism
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| Fir3start3r |
Now before any of you do a knee-jerked reply calling me Islamiphobic or Zionist lover please take a step back from your head-strong beliefs (you know who you are ;)) and then read these articles.
There's a lot of questioning going on about Islam's ability to fight terrorism in their own midst but at the same time, tell us their's nothing they can do? :conf:
My question would be, what exactly is Islam doing about terrorism? In one hand they had issued statements denouncing it (good, but expected) and in the other, they're saying there's nothing they can do? (bad)
I truly feel sorry more for all Muslims; their leaders need to be more affirmative and convincing to the world!
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Muslim 'Moderates' And Terrorism
BY FIAMMA NIRENSTEIN
July 28, 2005
SHARM EL-SHEIK, Egypt - The poor people dressed in Islamic garb or in dirty blue trousers and T-shirts sitting in 118-degree heat in the hall of the Sharm el-Sheik Hospital were either the brothers, the cousins, or the friends of the people wounded in the terrorist attack of the day before. Just plenty of desperate young people.
No women were there, no mothers, or sisters, or wives. Egyptian women almost don't live in Sharm. The family and children of the workers are in the villages near Cairo, and their beloved men come to visit for one week once a month. Sharm is inhabited by a couple of thousand military people and public officials that President Mubarak, just like President Sadat, keeps as a defense vanguard near his own villa; or by poor workers, waiters, drivers, plumbers, and cooks - lots of day laborers that serve the enormous tourism business. Only a large group of very poor workers, the other face of the holiday town of Sharm el-Sheik, have been the killed and the wounded here.
You understand many things about terrorism when you speak to them; and you understand also, unfortunately, why we will never be able to count on what we call "the moderate Muslims" for the war against terrorism.
What you learn about terrorism from the poor of Sharm, if you still didn't know it, is that its cruelty has no limits, no excuses, and no historical explanation, but only a cold ideological background.
The terrorists know that the men they kill, wound, and destroy economically have nothing to do with imperialism, occupation, Palestine, Iraq, colonialism, and all the other explanations that the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, finds to explain their crimes. They know who the hundreds they are going to kill are: people who sleep 10 (exactly!) to a room, with no bathroom, one toilet, and one little kitchen; people who define themselves as "good Muslims," go the mosques once a week, pray three times a day, and when they forget, says Khaled, it is because they work too much or it is too hot; people who after the terrorist attack tremble because they will have no work anymore, now that the tourist season is destroyed and this will make them lose their $100 a month wage in the best cases for a family of five, six, 10 children.
These guys are the typical "moderate Muslim" that the holy rage of the jihadists destroys with fury, the one infected by the contact with the West and also the one that in our Western dreams and in many European and American experts' analyses should suddenly rise against the extreme Islam, their enemy.
So, let's test this thesis and ask: "Do they hate terrorists?" The answer is "Yes, very much so," and they really do, - they close their fists and watch in rage and repeat to me that they deeply hope that Mr. Mubarak will catch them all, will put them in prison, will kill them. Are they ready to fight them? Yes, at every level, with their hands, if requested, and with demonstrations that actually, while I'm in Sharm, suddenly appear in the hot streets and just in front of the cameras of the international press: "Down with terrorism," "We are against terrorism"...
But then, if it's so, why can the great moderate Muslim world not really fight their own enemy? They themselves give me the answers: "Bin Laden? The Muslim Brotherhood? Certainly the terrorist attacks are not their work, no! This is a lie. A Muslim could never do this. And if they say they do it in the name of Islam, they are not Islamic; or, most likely, this shows, like the television says, that someone uses the name of Islam just to hide the real perpetrators."
Anyhow, Islam is out of the question, And then, we ask again, who is behind the attacks? Well, you know the answer, they smile with a smart expression. Mahmoud, who comes from a periphery of Cairo, where he now cannot go back because he doesn't have the money for a bus ticket, knows the answer, and so do all his other friends, about 10, all from the same town, now all together as one, standing in the corridor of the Hospital of Sharm, no air-conditioning, their friend Khaled in bed with a wound in his back ("I was lucky. Nadem had both of his legs amputated," Khaled says).
They know the answer, yes: the television said that only the Israelis and the Americans have a real interest in seeing Egypt on its knees; General Fuad Allam said that the perpetrators of the Taba attack of October 2004 were apparently linked to the Israeli security forces, and so, supposedly, it is today. Also Al-Jazeera and even Al-Arabia interviewed "experts" to confirm this point of view. A big, beautiful guy with a red T-shirt just puts it down bluntly: "We know only what the television tells us."
It's suddenly clear to me that here television is a metaphor for "knowledge" and for "power": printed paper, school texts, Friday sermons in the mosques, everything is "television" for this guy and his hundreds of millions of "moderate Muslim" friends. And everything points to the Israeli as an object of hate. Their poor condition - almost of slaves, of people almost without civil rights and work protections - makes the growth of their knowledge of how this are going a danger for the fascistic power there rules them.
So, we cannot count on "moderate" Arabs, not even on the group of youngsters that I meet later, the girls dressed just like ours: They repeat to me, still with a smart little face, "It cannot be a Muslim, it's certainly the Israelis and the Americans." The dream palace of the Arab, after the terrorist attack in Sharm, just like the thousands of attacks in Iraq and in Israel, is still there; the summer camps of Hamas still teach that it's good to kill the Jews; several madrassas work full time as centers of recruitment; the television broadcasts an "analysis" that charges the Mossad and the CIA with mass murders. The dictators of the Arab countries, in this case Mr. Mubarak, don't let Khaled know who the guys that cut their legs are. So, Khaled can be as "moderate" as we want, but so long as that fascist culture of hate is there, we can count only on ourselves.
Ms. Nirenstein is an Italian journalist.
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>>Source<<
Here's a radio broadcast that got him suspended (rightly so) but asks the some poignant questions...
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THE TRAGEDY OF ISLAM
By Michael Graham
I take no pleasure in saying it. It pains me to think it. I could very well lose my job in talk radio over admitting it. But it is the plain truth:
Islam is a terror organization.
For years, I've been trying to give the world's Muslim community the benefit of the doubt, along with the benefit of my typical-American's complete disinterest in their faith. Before 9/11, I knew nothing about Islam except the greeting "asalaam alaikum," taught to me by a Pakistani friend in Chicago.
Immediately after 9/11, I nodded in ignorant agreement as President Bush assured me that "Islam is a religion of peace."
But nearly four years later, nobody can defend that statement. And I mean "nobody."
Certainly not the group of "moderate" Muslim clerics and imams who gathered in London last week to issue a statement on terrorism and their faith. When asked the question "Are suicide bombings always a violation of Islam," they could not answer "Yes. Always." Instead, these "moderate British Muslims" had to answer "It depends."
Precisely what it depends on, news reports did not say. Sadly, given our new knowledge of Islam from the past four years, it probably depends on whether or not you're killing Jews.
That is part of the state of modern Islam.
Another fact about the state of Islam is that a majority of Muslims in countries like Jordan continue to believe that suicide bombings are legitimate. Still another is the poll reported by a left-leaning British paper than only 73 percent of British Muslims would tell police if they knew about a planned terrorist attack.
The other 27 percent? They are a part of modern Islam, too.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations is outraged that I would dare to connect the worldwide epidemic of terrorism with Islam. They put it down to bigotry, asserting that a lifetime of disinterest in Islam has suddenly become blind hatred. They couldn't be more wrong.
Not to be mean to the folks at CAIR, but I don't: Care, that is. I simply don't care about Islam, its theology, its history — I have no interest in it at all. All I care about is not getting blown to smithereens when I board a bus or ride a plane. I care about living in a world where terrorism and murder/suicide bombings are rejected by all.
And the reason Islam has itself become a terrorist organization is that it cannot address its own role in this violence. It cannot cast out the murderers from its members. I know it can't, because "moderate" Muslim imams keep telling me they can't. "We have no control over these radical young men," one London imam moaned to the local papers.
Can't kick 'em out of your faith? Can't excommunicate them? Apparently Islam does not allow it.
Islam cannot say that terrorism is forbidden to Muslims. I know this because when the world's Muslim nations gathered after 9/11 to state their position on terrorism, they couldn't even agree on what it was. How could they, when the world's largest terror sponsors at the time were Iran and Saudi Arabia — both governed by Islamic law.
If the Boy Scouts of America had 1,000 scout troops, and 10 of them practiced suicide bombings, then the BSA would be considered a terrorist organization. If the BSA refused to kick out those 10 troops, that would make the case even stronger. If people defending terror repeatedly turned to the Boy Scout handbook and found language that justified and defended murder — and the scoutmasters in charge simply said "Could be" — the Boy Scouts would have driven out of America long ago.
Today, Islam has entire sects and grand mosques that preach terror. Its theology is used as a source of inspiration by terrorist murderers. Millions of Islam's members give these killers support and comfort.
The question isn't how dare I call Islam a terrorist organization, but rather why more people do not.
As I've said many times, I have great sympathy for those Muslims of good will who want their faith to be a true "religion of peace." I believe that terrorism and murder do violate the sensibilities and inherent decency of the vast majority of the world's Muslims. I believe they want peace.
Sadly, the organization and fundamental theology of Islam as it is constituted today allows for hatreds most Muslims do not share to thrive, and for criminals they oppose to operate in the name of their faith.
Many Muslims, I believe, know this to be true and some are acting on it. Not the members of CAIR, unfortunately: As Middle East analyst and expert Daniel Pipes has reported, "two of CAIR's associates (Ghassan Elashi, Randall Royer) have been convicted on terrorism-related charges, one (Bassem Khafegi) convicted on fraud charges, two (Rabih Haddad, Bassem Khafegi) have been deported, and one (Siraj Wahhaj) remains at large."
But Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf admits what CAIR will not. He's called for a jihad against the jihadists. He's putting his life on the line (Islamists have tried to assassinate him three times) in the battle to reclaim Islam and its fundamental decency.
He remembers, I'm sure, that at a time when Western, Christian civilization was on the verge of collapse, the Muslim world was a bastion of rationalism and tolerance. That was a great moment in the history of Islam, a moment that helped save the West.
Let's hope Islam can now find the strength to save itself.
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>>Source<< |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
There's a lot of questioning going on about Islam's ability to fight terrorism in their own midst but at the same time, tell us their's nothing they can do? :conf: |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
My question would be, what exactly is Islam doing about terrorism? In one hand they had issued statements denouncing it (good, but expected) and in the other, they're saying there's nothing they can do? (bad) |
Firstly, you're going to need to rephrase that question if you expect any kind of answer. Religion is not a living breathing being.
Secondly, replace the word "Islam" with "Muslims" and your question might make a little more sense.
Thirdly, you wouldn't be asking such a question if you had any understanding of the cause of terrorism (by so called Islamic extremists). You have to look at Westerm coloniolism in the Middle East and how people were treated under colonial rule. And in more recent decades, you'll need to look at US foreighn policy and the effects it's had on the region (not to mention US support for Israel). Terrorism doesn't have anything to do with religion. Religion is merely a tool used to manipulate young angry males into joining various militant groups. The root cause of terrorism is the anger fueled by the injustices imposed on the middle east by westerm powers (mainly the US). The whole "they hate our culture, values and freedom" explanation as the reason for terrorism has no basis in reality and is a complete fantasy. The only way anyone could take such an absurd explanation like that seriously is if they're basically ignorant when it comes to knowing anything about Muslims and how US foreighn policy has so adversly affected any kind of positive change/development in the Middle East.
Fourthly, the US has been sponsoring terroism for years. The "War on Terrorism" is nothing but a new hypocritical propoganda term. As Chomsky put it so aptly when describing US (and to an extent Western attitude with regards to terrorism), "That's something we do you, not you to us." |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Now [snip] call [snip] me [snip] [a] Zionist lover |
:eyes: No! It can not be, is it really true? Can it be somone loves zionist-old me?!!! 
:toothless :p |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Firstly, you're going to need to rephrase that question if you expect any kind of answer. Religion is not a living breathing being.
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While true, the ball is in squarely in their court.
If Catholics can excommunicate their own, what do Muslims/Islamics do?
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Secondly, replace the word "Islam" with "Muslims" and your question might make a little more sense.
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Can you be Muslim without being Islamic? :conf:
(honestly, I don't know)
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Thirdly, you wouldn't be asking such a question if you had any understanding of the cause of terrorism (by so called Islamic extremists). You have to look at Westerm coloniolism in the Middle East and how people were treated under colonial rule. And in more recent decades, you'll need to look at US foreighn policy and the effects it's had on the region (not to mention US support for Israel). Terrorism doesn't have anything to do with religion. Religion is merely a tool used to manipulate young angry males into joining various militant groups. The root cause of terrorism is the anger fueled by the injustices imposed on the middle east by westerm powers (mainly the US). The whole "they hate our culture, values and freedom" explanation as the reason for terrorism has no basis in reality and is a complete fantasy. The only way anyone could take such an absurd explanation like that seriously is if they're basically ignorant when it comes to knowing anything about Muslims and how US foreighn policy has so adversly affected any kind of positive change/development in the Middle East.
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Ah yes, the U.S. medling in everyone's affairs explaination; because everyone knows that business is only done in your own country...:rolleyes:
While you're correct; terrorism doesn't have anything to do with religion; however, if terrorists are going to use religion as a cloak, then it's up to that religion to make a concerted effort to weed them out. It's not going to go away simply because a few leaders say they don't support it.
Terrorists are taking advantage of the situation and it's been working for years.
So when does it stop? When leaders actually LEAD.
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The "War on Terrorism" is nothing but a new hypocritical propoganda term. |
Wow. How truly blind.
So who should we blame then for all the things that have been going on in the world?
Oh right, it must be 'cosmic karma' or some other nebulus excuse coming home to roost... |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
:eyes: No! It can not be, is it really true? Can it be somone loves zionist-old me?!!!
:toothless :p |
:p |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
If Catholics can excommunicate their own, what do Muslims/Islamics do?
Can you be Muslim without being Islamic? :conf:
(honestly, I don't know)
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Ok, time for making a distinction and using proper terminology.
Religion: Islam.
Followers of that religion: Muslims.
Term like Islamist, Islamic (when referring to people) don't mean anything. A follower of Islam is called a Muslim, not an Islamist or Islamic.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Ah yes, the U.S. medling in everyone's affairs explaination; because everyone knows that business is only done in your own country...:rolleyes:
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If you're just going to write off history and the current state of affairs (and their expected consequences), that's not going to really help you understand the situation or what should be done about it.
Doing business with someone is one thing, aggresive policy, dictating terms and policy, installing military bases, invasion etc are entirely another thing.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
While you're correct; terrorism doesn't have anything to do with religion; however, if terrorists are going to use religion as a cloak, then it's up to that religion to make a concerted effort to weed them out. It's not going to go away simply because a few leaders say they don't support it.
Terrorists are taking advantage of the situation and it's been working for years.
So when does it stop? When leaders actually LEAD.
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It's really quite simple. Stop the injustice and there will be no retaliation (of any kind).
And to answer the second part of your question, I really don't know what more you expect from Muslims and Muslim scholars. They've already
denounced terrorism.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Wow. How truly blind.
So who should we blame then for all the things that have been going on in the world?
Oh right, it must be 'cosmic karma' or some other nebulus excuse coming home to roost... |
It's truly blind of you to ignore attrocities carried out by the West (US, Britain & France; but in more recent times, since WW2, mainly the US). The US Gov and CIA have sponsored terrorism for decades now (for example the death-squads in El Salvador, amonst numerous examples.)
You are eighter really ignorant or really biased or both if you don't even acknowledge the simple fact that the West has been carrying out attrocities on other nations for decades now (again, mainly the US, Britain and France, and Spain if you want to go further back and include conquest of the Americas and their treatement of the natives, or should I say genocide?). |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
It's really quite simple. Stop the injustice and there will be no retaliation (of any kind).
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do you mean the injustice of 241 American and 57 French peacekeepers under a UN mandate masacred to stop the slaughter of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon?
or do you mean the injustice of Saudi Arabia wanting us put an airbase on the Arabian penisula to head off Republican Gaurd forces from raping Kuwait?
because the ideology you and other extremist leaders defend is exactly what a man named Bin Laden called an injustice to Muslims everywhere. the defence of it is completely irrational. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
because the ideology you and other extremist leaders defend is exactly what a man named Bin Laden called an injustice to Muslims everywhere. the defence of it is completely irrational. |
First of all, I'm not defending anyone involved in any kind of injunctice, wheather it's terrorism or an act of agression, Western or not, regardless of their ideology. So stop putting words in my mouth.
I was explaining to Firestarter the root cause of terrorism, not defending those action or justifying them.
Do you really want me to give you a list of crimes (terrorism, agression and war crimes) carried out by the US and other major western powers? It's a ing endless list.
EDIT: And stop putting labels on me that don't apply. But I guess you can't resist doing that, since you have no argument.
And pull your head of your blind ignorant nationalistic facsist ass and do some research. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Do you really want me to give you a list of crimes (terrorism, agression and war crimes) carried out by the US and other major western powers? It's a ing endless list.
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Dont even bother with him,he is hopeless. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Do you really want me to give you a list of crimes (terrorism, agression and war crimes) carried out by the US and other major western powers? It's a ing endless list. |
be my guest
| quote: | | It's really quite simple. Stop the injustice and there will be no retaliation (of any kind). |
i don't know dude you said it. i'm putting words in your mouth because it was those same words that came out of it:rolleyes:
anyway thats not really the point whether you say it or not. the hero of the extremist cause said it and has done quite a few things about it directly and indirectly that has brought this madness to a head...i could give a whether you said it or not. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Dont even bother with him,he is hopeless. |
and you burgle turds.
...BTW i am full of hope. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
i don't know dude you said it. i'm putting words in your mouth because it was those same words that came out of it:rolleyes:
anyway thats not really the point whether you say it or not. the hero of the extremist cause said it and has done quite a few things about it directly and indirectly that has brought this madness to a head...i could give a whether you said it or not. |
No, this is what I said:
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It's really quite simple. Stop the injustice and there will be no retaliation (of any kind).
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How the do you conclude from that that I in any way approve of attrocities carried out on the West? Pointing out the cause of a crime doesn't mean you sympathise the criminal and approve of his actions. |
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