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This forum: Pool our thoughts (pg. 3)
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| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
Suggestions :D?
I ain't no economist. But I could certainly teach someone the difference between Conflict Theory and Functionalism in 10 minutes in Sociological theory without introducing any bias about which I thought was better. |
Good for you!
But I still don't like the essence of the idea though. It would cause upset and possibly a backlash within groups people who sat and failed the test. There would be an infinite controversy over who should teach, how difficult the test should be and what the items should entail. It would result in an intelligent, but unbalanced and unrepresentative electorate. Although there is obvious logic behind the idea and I agree with it in principle, the problems in reality would vastly outweigh those of a democracy. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Well, they could each set their own taxes and that would solve that problem! |
Yea, cause we don't get screwed enough by ONE government...:p |
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| Arbiter |
Generally speaking, the best way to improve something is to identify its faults and then seek ways to remedy them.
The most striking fault of democracy is very simple: in practice, the masses do not exhibit responsibility commensurate to the power with which they are bestowed by the system.
Selecting the individuals to guide the direction of a nation is a tremendous responsibility. An examination of the democratically elected governments of the world should quickly reveal one thing: this responsibility is not being adequately fulfilled. Our governments are filled with demagogues who have manipulated their way into places of authority by taking advantage of a lazy and under-qualified electorate. It is campaign slogans and tactics, endoresments and advertisements which decide the outcome of elections, not individual qualifications or any kind of sound ideas.
There is no "friendly" solution to this very deep-rooted problem. We cannot claim to uphold freedom of speech while silencing the red herrings and glittering generalities of the demagogues' propaganda machines. And yet, we cannot realistically expect a sufficient proportion of the population to attain the necessary attributes to see through such tactics. At least, not within any reasonable time frame and not when the already-elected demagogues are doing everything in their rather substantial power to prevent it.
Indeed, there is no reliable recourse from within the parameters of the system to correct this problem at all. So long as the people have the power to choose who holds the real power, and so long as those holding the real power use that power to ensure that the people continue to choose from the same pool of tainted candidates, this system fault is able to propagate itself indefinitely. The only real legal way to attempt to break the cycle is to try to fight the demagogues on their own terms: to infiltrate their organizations and attempt to gain political power through the usual channels, and then to use that position once you have it to fight back against the corruption. However, in order to affect any real long-term change one would have to coordinate a massive effort to seize sufficient power within the government as to have the majority necessary to reform it. A rather difficult feat, particularly when reliable, intelligent people able and willing to dedicate themselves to the task are nigh impossible to find in any significant quantity. It would probably be easier, in fact, to use the same general strategy for more nefarious purposes.
I am not particularly fond of this conclusion, but I am forced to conclude that democracy does not appear to be a viable form of government at this time. Even if reforms were somehow implemented and education were improved drastically, I fear that the situation would inevitably deteriorate over several generations and eventually leave us right back in the same predicament.
I do hold out some hope that one day humanity might be able to possess the collective strength, intelligence, and responsibility necessary to make democracy work. But that day is not today. And so I must suggest that the best way to improve democracy is to make it as little like a genuine democracy as possible. |
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| donnybrasco |
| There's already a really well designed example of a functioning Democratic Country out there, one that also happens to be the #1 successful Democracy in the world.................it's called the "USA". ;) |
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| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
There's already a really well designed example of a functioning Democratic Country out there, one that also happens to be the #1 successful Democracy in the world.................it's called the "USA". ;) |
Who on earth said that??? Link please???
The problem with democracy is that at the moment, it consists of a largely uninformed and uninterested electorate. This lack of knowledge is the root of the problem with the democracy. People who know very little about the running of a country (economics, education, e.t.c.) are in the position of choosing by whom and how it is run.
In addition, the government can get away with telling us only what they want us to hear. So, the whole concept of people power is an illusion. With an electorate and voting system like this, it's not really a democracy at all. |
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| donnybrasco |
^^But that's just the point.
Like it or not, the voting system is meant to be a voice for everyone, the ignorant and elite alike...that's where the true balance of power comes in to play...that's where everything gets averaged out and a happy medium is found for all.
I don't like that there are a lot of people dumber than me voting and making some pretty bad decisions from time to time, but over-all, the system has balance, and for every term some idiotic Democrat has in office, passing messed up "feel-good" laws and waisting our tax dollars, the pendulum eventually swings back the other way in coming elections and we get a more conservative official (hopefully a Libertarian!:D ). |
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| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
^^But that's just the point.
Like it or not, the voting system is meant to be a voice for everyone, the ignorant and elite alike... |
Yes, I agree with you - but that's not to say that the current system is the ideal. Read my posts above for a full explanation as I can't be bothered going through it all a second time. |
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| Arbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
There's already a really well designed example of a functioning Democratic Country out there, one that also happens to be the #1 successful Democracy in the world.................it's called the "USA". ;) |
I'm sorry to be the one to have to break the news to you, but the USA is a miserable failure. Our democratically elected leaders squander lives and resources in ridiculous conflicts around the globe from which we have nothing to gain, and while blatantly lying about their motive for doing so. Our population becomes more ignorant and bigoted with each successive generation as our education system's old wounds continue to fester. The private resources of our population are constantly pillaged by an overgrown behemoth of a bureaucracy which then squanders them all while also accruing a titanic debt and yet failing to make significant progress on even the most simplistic social issues. Our prisons are overflowing with individuals guilty only of poor judgment and who pose no threat to society whatsoever. But rather than attempt to provide assistance or at the very least to just not cause further harm, we strip them of their freedom and their dignity at tremendous cost to ourselves. Our government tramples upon our individual freedom as if it means nothing and justifies itself with paranoid delusions and 2000-year-old children's stories. What's even worse - the people are so misguided and blind that most of them don't even see anything wrong with it.
If that's the best democracy has to offer then I say: democracy. |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
I'm sorry to be the one to have to break the news to you, but the USA is a miserable failure. Our democratically elected leaders squander lives and resources in ridiculous conflicts around the globe from which we have nothing to gain... |
We have everything to gain from the war in Iraq;
OIL! :D
But everyone is so hypocritical about that. Truth is, oil literally makes the wheels of our econmy go around. Without it, "goodbye soft living" and "hello second rate world power". I don't know about you, but I kind of like the way I'm living right now, and I make no appologies for it! Who the hell doesn't want to live like we do!?
The only thing this government IS guilty of is lying about the real goals of the war...but that's only because most people don't get simple economics and can't handle the truth (and accept responsibility for their own gluttony as consumers who demand oil-rich living). When it comes down to it, I doubt even a minority of Americans would be willing to give up this lifestyle we have in exchange for some lofty notion of economic "fairness". And besides, it's not like Saddam is missed by anyone anyway!
But the democarcy we will hopefully bring to Iraq is their greatest gift out of all this. Maybe the people will stop suffering at the hands of Dictators like Saddam (...well, there's always hope anyways).
The model we have here can work in other countries, imo (with obvious modifications to suit the varied cultures taken in to consideration).
My favorite thing to see in this country is people driving around with "No War for Oil" bumper stickers on their CARS!! Ummm...HELLO!!?!?!? LOL! ;) |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
We have everything to gain from the war in Iraq;
OIL! :D
But everyone is so hypocritical about that. Truth is, oil literally makes the wheels of our econmy go around. Without it, "goodbye soft living" and "hello second rate world power". I don't know about you, but I kind of like the way I'm living right now, and I make no appologies for it! Who the hell doesn't want to live like we do!?
The only thing this government IS guilty of is lying about the real goals of the war...but that's only because most people don't get simple economics and can't handle the truth (and accept responsibility for their own gluttony as consumers who demand oil-rich living). When it comes down to it, I doubt even a minority of Americans would be willing to give up this lifestyle we have in exchange for some lofty notion of economic "fairness". And besides, it's not like Saddam is missed by anyone anyway!
But the democarcy we will hopefully bring to Iraq is their greatest gift out of all this. Maybe the people will stop suffering at the hands of Dictators like Saddam (...well, there's always hope anyways).
The model we have here can work in other countries, imo (with obvious modifications to suit the varied cultures taken in to consideration).
My favorite thing to see in this country is people driving around with "No War for Oil" bumper stickers on their CARS!! Ummm...HELLO!!?!?!? LOL! ;) |
Okay, im glad you admit your reasons, but WHAT THE !?
"Simple ecnomics" is a lot more important than humans lifes?! |
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| shaolin_Z |
| Nice posts Arbiter, you hit the nail on the head. I'm curious thought, what form of Goverment do you think is appropriate for now? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| You honesty is refreshing donnybrasco, but you're also seriously messed up. |
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