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This forum: Pool our thoughts (pg. 4)
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Okay, im glad you admit your reasons, but WHAT THE !?
"Simple ecnomics" is a lot more important than humans lifes?! |
Maybe more lives were saved in the long run by ousting Saddam? He knew the value of his oil too. We couldn't sanction him forever, the world is in need of the oil, and the world could not afford to let him profit from it's sale. Had he been allowed to stay in power and develop an army with that oil money, his designs on expansion wouldn't have stayed in check and MILLIONS could have died in future wars.
A lot of other countries around the world depend on our strong and stable economy as well. Canada benefits ENORMOUSLY from our strength as a nation. Your Army just a year or so ago was smaller than the entire Police force of New York City! But Canada doesn't really need a military now, does it? I doubt the U.S. would ever allow Canada to be over-run by an enemy...so by default, our strong military is also yours! And if the U.S. was all about power-tripping, then why haven't we taken the easiest neighbor to the north out? ;)
In the long run, a quick and decisive war with Iraq at this point in time was waaaay beter than a protracted war against a better equipped and ruthlessly led Iraq under Saddam...I blame Saddam for this war, not the U.S.
Most countries want peace...it's good for business...Saddam just didn't get that. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
Maybe more lives were saved in the long run by ousting Saddam? He knew the value of his oil too. We couldn't sanction him forever, the world is in need of the oil, and the world could not afford to let him profit from it's sale. Had he been allowed to stay in power and develop an army with that oil money, his designs on expansion wouldn't have stayed in check and MILLIONS could have died in future wars.
A lot of other countries around the world depend on our strong and stable economy as well. Canada benefits ENORMOUSLY from our strength as a nation. Your Army just a year or so ago was smaller than the entire Police force of New York City! But Canada doesn't really need a military now, does it? I doubt the U.S. would ever allow Canada to be over-run by an enemy...so by default, our strong military is also yours! And if the U.S. was all about power-tripping, then why haven't we taken the easiest neighbor top the north out? ;)
In the long run, a quick and decisive war with Iraq at this point in time was waaaay beter than a protracted war against a better equipped and ruthlessly led Iraq under Saddam...I blame Saddam for this war, not the U.S.
Most countries want peace...it's good for business...Saddam just didn't get that. |
I agree if the US invaded iraq, and all the iraqis loved it and they all lived happy in democracy and peace forever after, that would indeed have been something great for iraq and the world in hte long run. But seriously, look at iraq now, 100 000 dead since you walked in there, and its not looking bright at all.
I mean really, if norway decided that Bush was the most evil man on earth and he kills way too many inocent ppl (which in fact is a perfectly logic argument). If they then decided to do something about it and they overthrough the US (lets just imagine they had the power to do so). Then imposed their way of democracy upon you, would you as a US citizen like that? would you just accept that? or would you perhaps try to fight back against the norweigian troops? i think you would, even if you didnt like bush you would have. i know its all in theory, but just to try to give you an idea of what it feels like for them. |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
You honesty is refreshing donnybrasco, but you're also seriously messed up. |
:stongue:
Just being ruthlessly honest and thinking outside the box as best I can...trust me; Most Americans can theorize all day long about miopic "feel-good" politics...but when it comes down to it, they want to leave the Anti-Bush Rally in their SUV's, stop by 7-11 to pick up a Big-Gulp in a giant PLASTIC cup, then head home to bang out some e-mails to friends about how well the rally went on their PLASTIC keyboards, whilst nestled in their heated and/or Air Conditioned homes........seriously, they're not really going to give it up, no matter what the average Liberal says....would you if you had a choice? |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
I mean really, if norway decided that Bush was the most evil man on earth and he kills way too many inocent ppl (which in fact is a perfectly logic argument). If they then decided to do something about it and they overthrough the US (lets just imagine they had the power to do so). Then imposed their way of democracy upon you, would you as a US citizen like that? would you just accept that? or would you perhaps try to fight back against the norweigian troops? i think you would, even if you didnt like bush you would have. i know its all in theory, but just to try to give you an idea of what it feels like for them. |
Hey, I'm not saying that it doesn't suck to live in Iraq right now! But sometimes, you have to lose a little before you can gain a lot...and Iraq as a whole I think does stand to gain a lot if a form of Democracy can be made there.
The people may finally realize more power. They may finally see more of their countries oil money come back to them directly, as opposed to going in to a Dictator's pockets...and that should result in a MUCH better way of life for them.
No matter what road we went down in Iraq, it was going to be a choice of the lesser of two evils in terms of an inevitable war.......and Bush would look like a hero right now if he could only have been honest about what the war was truly about. If only people could take the time to learn and understand economics.........ahhh, but alas, "The Masses are Asses"...they don't think beyond puppy dogs and ice-cream, and that's just not how the real world is. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
:stongue:
Just being ruthlessly honest and thinking outside the box as best I can...trust me; Most Americans can theorize all day long about miopic "feel-good" politics...but when it comes down to it, they want to leave the Anti-Bush Rally in their SUV's, stop by 7-11 to pick up a Big-Gulp in a giant PLASTIC cup, then head home to bang out some e-mails to friends about how well the rally went on their PLASTIC keyboards, whilst nestled in their heated and/or Air Conditioned homes........seriously, they're not really going to give it up, no matter what the average Liberal says....would you if you had a choice? |
So you're fine with agression and terrorism and innocent lives being lost (in the hundreds of thousands) if it supports "your way of life?" How do you sleep at night? |
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| est |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
:stongue:
Just being ruthlessly honest and thinking outside the box as best I can...trust me; Most Americans can theorize all day long about miopic "feel-good" politics...but when it comes down to it, they want to leave the Anti-Bush Rally in their SUV's, stop by 7-11 to pick up a Big-Gulp in a giant PLASTIC cup, then head home to bang out some e-mails to friends about how well the rally went on their PLASTIC keyboards, whilst nestled in their heated and/or Air Conditioned homes........seriously, they're not really going to give it up, no matter what the average Liberal says....would you if you had a choice? |
What on earth does all this have to do with an alternative to a democracy??? A change in voting system needn't bring about a reduction in our living standards. You've come in to a debate about the electoral system and turned it in to a justification for the Iraqi war!
Try these:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=274764
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=264113 |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
So you're fine with agression and terrorism and innocent lives being lost (in the hundreds of thousands) if it supports "your way of life?" How do you sleep at night? |
Hmmm... maybe I'm not being clear, but I don't really see those two as directly related.
I was just pointing out what the war in Iraq was REALLY all about, imho.
I think this whole side-show about a "War on Terror" and justifications about doing it to bring Democracy to Iraq such was just the smoke screen. Democracy will be nice there if it works, but it wasn't the real goal. I don't condone killing people so I can live better, but by the same token, I think that we averted a potentially nastier war down the road with Iraq by attacking now, when Saddam was weak...I think the whole world benefited! Both economically and from a humanitarian stand-point.
Exporting to America is big business these days and a LOT of countries are getting rich off of our stable economy.
Someone was going to benefit from that oil.......would you have rather it been Saddam? |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by est
What on earth does all this have to do with an alternative to a democracy??? A change in voting system needn't bring about a reduction in our living standards. You've come in to a debate about the electoral system and turned it in to a justification for the Iraqi war! |
Arbiter was the one who brought it up actually, amongst many a topic on how Democracy is a "Failure". I have tried to keep the connection in my posts though if you go back and see...
But sorry to get off topic a bit...bottom line is; What's there to fix about voting, of all things? If you're a citizen, you get a vote....EOM!
Hey, where the hell are all the Conservatives on this board anyways? :tongue2 |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
Hmmm... maybe I'm not being clear, but I don't really see those two as directly related.
I was just pointing out what the war in Iraq was REALLY all about, imho.
I think this whole side-show about a "War on Terror" and such was the smoke screen. I don't condone killing people so I can live better, but by the same token, I think that we averted a potentially nastier war down the road with Iraq by attacking now, when Saddam was weak...I think the whole world benefited! Both economically and from a humanitariun stand-point.
Exporting to America is big business these days and a LOT of countries are getting rich off of our stable economy.
Someone was going to benefit from that oil.......would you have rather it been Saddam? |
You need to do some research my friend. Sadaam came to power with US support. The chemical weapons he used to gas the Kurds were sold to him by the US and the US continued to support him after teh gasing. Iraq was doing just fine until the US brought Sadaam to power.
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
You need to do some research my friend. Sadaam came to power with US support. The chemical weapons he used to gas the Kurds were sold to him by the US and the US continued to support him after teh gasing. Iraq was doing just fine until the US brought Sadaam to power.
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Hey, anyone can make a mistake.
The key to a cure is recognition of one's problem...and Saddam was a problem. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
Hey, anyone can make a mistake.
The key to a cure is recognition of one's problem...and Saddam was a problem. |
It wasn't a "mistake", it was intentional. Sadaam was a US asset until he disobeyed orders and that's why we had the Gulf War. |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
It wasn't a "mistake", it was intentional. Sadaam was a US asset until he disobeyed orders and that's why we had the Gulf War. |
At least now a Middle-eastern country will see it's first chance at Democracy as a result!
This is truly historic, and could completely and drastically change the world for the better it works.
Each country's Democracy will obviously have to be tailored for it's culture and needs...even ours is not really as "Free" as we make it out to be. This country has more laws about so many stupid ing things it makes you want to move to a corrupt third-world country sometimes, where you can at least BUY your way through the red-tape to true freedom!
But at least at the core of Democracy is the most powerful tool in it's arsenal; The Vote. With this power, people can truly govern themselves...it shouldn't be qualified in any way. |
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