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Welfare State aka: America (pg. 2)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
Why is this guy's theory so hard to grasp for some of you? |
Well for a start I'd hardly describe America as a model welfare state to begin with... |
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| kush paintings |
| It seems to me, donny, that this aussie knows more about the U.S. than you do, since you are completely misinformed about the welfare system. |
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| Reverend_Trance |
| quote: | Originally posted by kush paintings
It seems to me, donny, that this aussie knows more about the U.S. than you do, since you are completely misinformed about the welfare system. |
THe welfare system is a joke. I used to work in a grocery store. The people who used food stamps usually bought pizza, pop and candy. Health food is not in their vocabulary.
A big example of bad welfare policy are the Indian reservations. Most of the people live below the poverty line. They are given money and homes. Out of our collective guilt, homes from military bases are given to them.
For example, some business took me to Fort Yates, North Dakota on the Standing Rock Reservation. The entire town was comprised of manufactured homes. Some of the homes were stripped of anything valuable and were sold, just leaving a shell.
Some Indians, (not all), because they are given everything do not respect private property. A family friend in Waubun, MN in the White Earth Reservation, has problems with people stealing his gasoline and farm equipment.
The tribal police is a joke. You get the job if a friend is on the tribal council. And racial profling exists against the white man. And the other thing I question is the Indian casino system, because the rake in the monwy but I do not see improvement of the quality of life.
I have Native American co-workers and they say they are better off now outside of the reservation. The poverty and the way of life is like a Third World nation and they are happy to leave. They do lose some benefits, but they prefer the better life outside of the reservation. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Reverend_Trance
THe welfare system is a joke. I used to work in a grocery store. The people who used food stamps usually bought pizza, pop and candy. Health food is not in their vocabulary.
A big example of bad welfare policy are the Indian reservations. Most of the people live below the poverty line. They are given money and homes. Out of our collective guilt, homes from military bases are given to them.
For example, some business took me to Fort Yates, North Dakota on the Standing Rock Reservation. The entire town was comprised of manufactured homes. Some of the homes were stripped of anything valuable and were sold, just leaving a shell.
Some Indians, (not all), because they are given everything do not respect private property. A family friend in Waubun, MN in the White Earth Reservation, has problems with people stealing his gasoline and farm equipment.
The tribal police is a joke. You get the job if a friend is on the tribal council. And racial profling exists against the white man. And the other thing I question is the Indian casino system, because the rake in the monwy but I do not see improvement of the quality of life.
I have Native American co-workers and they say they are better off now outside of the reservation. The poverty and the way of life is like a Third World nation and they are happy to leave. They do lose some benefits, but they prefer the better life outside of the reservation. |
So anyway...about the welfar state anyone? |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
... and i really do think youve turned this into a question of race, rather than a question of welfare recipients.
maybe next time i disagree with you, you could refrain from telling me its coz CNN told me to? coz you dont have any evidence to support that accusation, k? |
It IS a question of race to a very large degree in this case! The author doesn't need to spell that out...all though he should have, but for previous reasons I stated, everyone in THIS country is scarred less to even mention race as being a factor for fear of being persecuted...but trust me, a lot of people know what he's driving at.
So you throw up some books on the welfare system that what, you've supposedly read? BIG DEAL! You're trying to impress me by telling me you got your education on the welfare system in the confines of some cushy college!?!?! Excuse me while I laugh till I puke. :haha: You're confusing poverty with serious cultural problems. The two can and are LINKED, but they certainly don't exist seperately! And as far as I'm concerned, the welfare system exists ONLY because of these serious cultural problems.
And ReverendTrance is right! I too have witnessed time and again people who SELL their food stamps below cost so they can get cash to buy liquor and drugs. It happens ALL THE TIME! And the Indians on those reservations? Right again. There is Res. here in Parker, Arizona I know of quite personally that is under investigation right now by the Federal Government because the Tribal Leaders are skimming all the Casino profits from their "brothers" (so much for "we just need a helping hand to get on our feet").
The welfare systems in this country in general are scams. They don't really help anyone much in the long run, as they are more about "enabling" someone with an affliction to stay addicted than they are about "constructive assistance"...they lend themselves to corruption on many levels, and they always will. Because it's human nature to have an element that wants to work, and an element that doesn't want to work too hard, followed by the elemnet that doesn't want to work at all! It's the reason a free-market economy works so well. The hardest working people rise to the top, and the crap settles at the bottom. It's the same reason Communism DOESN'T work. Throughout history the lower-class has always looked over their neighbor's fence and said; "I want what he's got"...and they've always looked for a way to TAKE it, rather than EARN it. That's exactly what the author is talking about, and that's exactly what welfare is about; Taking from those "dirty rich" and giving to the poor...same old crap, different century.
And in all honesty pkcRAISTLIN, I have serious doubts about your "education" anyway, as you seem to enjoy stooping to whipping out the profanity at a moment's notice...not the sign of someone who can make arguments based solely on merit and debating skills........so if I may, in a parlance you can understand;
GO YOURSELF! |
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| donnybrasco |
BTW:
I've already heard of reports that these disaster assitance debit cards being issued by the red cross and FEMA are turning up in high-priced luxury stores...........doesn't surprise me a bit...corruption strikes again.
Will we ever just go back to what made this country great and stop with the BS of trying to "equalize" everyone with these welfare (pay-off) programs? |
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| MrSquirrel |
I always find a good way to emphasize your point and convince people you are right in a debate is to tell the other side to go autofornicate.
Just adds to the image of intellectual depth.
MrS |
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| kush paintings |
| Donny, before you and reverand make broad sweeping generlaization about hte welfare system from what you have observed, how about you actually to some research on welfare abuse, participants, etc. I've done the work for you earlier in this very thread, but that was addressed at all. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
alrighty donny. we\'ll start from the beginning *sighs*
first, i have neither the desire nor inclination to wade thru google and find a bunch of welfare related textbooks. i can promise you that ive read those listed, but ultimately what you think is immaterial. i was merely trying to provide what evidence i could so you\'d stop accusing me (like you always seem to) of being educated by my television set or newspaper. you have nothing to back this assertion up, so why would you say it, oh so wise donny? please provide YOUR evidence to the contrary. someone disagreeing with you does not mean anything except that they disagree with you. in no way am i trying to impress you donny. hahahahahahahaha. once you provide me with your evidence, i am more than willing to admit ive been educated by the mainstream media my whole life.
now, apart from a tertiary-related (note, this can mean just reading lotsa books, you dont need a degree) education, how would you think the best way to understand how the modern welfare system works in the advanced liberal democracies? i certainly cant go round visiting every country that fits that description, interviewing welfare recipients and their antagonists and providing you with a report. so i try and read as widely as i can and get a bunch of professionals\' opinions to better understand how things work. if this is not good enough, then im sorry, very few people around the world would be able to venture an opinion on any topic at all (and i note youve made many posts on topics that i doubt you have had up close and personal relations with, so dont be a hypocrite).
can you tell me where you get your ideas from? being american doesnt make you an expert on anything. i would like to know what thought processes *youve* gone thru to come to your opinions. so far you have provided very little evidence to suggest you have much knowledge about how systems like these work at all. pointing out obvious micro flaws in a system (all and any system is open to abuse) is hardly a detailed analysis. in terms of some of your examples, those on welfare are entitled to make stupid and self-defeating decisions as freely as the rest of us.
and of course poverty and serious cultural problems can exist seperately. that statement is just ridiculous. but, to humour me, could you explain why the welfare system only exists because of serious cultural problems? in any capitalist economy since the 1970s unemployment has remained part and parcel of the system. it in fact is a core part of what keeps the system working. full-employment is something only unions and workers want. governments and business are a little cautious. unemployment breeds poverty.
the argument, especially in times of real economic recession, that anyone can go out and get a job simply isnt mathematically feasible.
so, what do we do with those that cannot find work, or those that cannot find enough work to support themselves? yes, welfare systems are open to abuse, just as anything else is. like the stock market ;) lets get rid of it due to insider trading. yes, the welfare system can engender laziness in some people who dont wish to work. but the welfare state hardly causes the initial problems to begin with. it certainly doesnt CAUSE a bunch of people to go out and rob and rape and steal, as alleged in the original article. its funny how you state that the free-merket economy works so well. the free market, based on competition, creates winners and losers. thats in its nature. some losers are better able to cope with their loss than others. as renegade has already stated, the dog-eat-dog mentality of those people commiting crime after katrina is much more akin to free-market economics than it is related to anything resembling the operations of a welfare state.
the US has one of the most stringent welfare systems in the world, especially considering its relative wealth and power. yet it also has one of the poorest poverty records as well. how do you equate this disparity? your argument is that the welfare state breeds laziness & crime. so if your welfare state is less generous than most, why do you have more criminals and lazy people? surely somewhere like sweden, with its very progressive & high-taxed system of social welfare would breed a ridiculous amount of crime, laziness, and people taking advantage of others after a snow storm? its simply not the case. the problems are much more particular to america, its capitalist culture and system of social stratification than it has to do with people who feel the need to buy alcohol with their food stamps.
again, if you want to discuss welfare based along racial lines, then start a new thread. its a different topic entirely. and id be happy to talk to you about it. but synonymising \"welfare\" with african american or native american is intellectually dishonest. there are plenty of people, in your country and others, that come from every conceivable background yet receive some form of welfare assistance. yes, people are always looking for ways to lie cheat and steal instead of earn it. people on welfare, stock market cheats, sport cheats, professional crime outfits, drug addicts, gambling addicts, lazy people, powerful people, government officials, media personalities etc. its the fueled obsession of self-interest and desire that causes most crime (in this context).
for your argument to be valid, you would have to say that removing all forms of welfare would in turn lower the crime rate, which simply isnt true. some people from all cultures, creeds, economic backgrounds, freedoms & relative power positions are caught committing offences every day. the fact that welfare states operate very differently and arguably more effectively in many other nations around the world points to problem more particular to the american condition than it does to all welfare systems being of a corruptible nature.
telling you, in the midst of my criticism of what youre saying that i think youre \"an arrogant \" after you have *repeatedly* accused me of being led by the media, when you have absolutely nothing but arrogance to back that up, is a fair call imo. nothing wrong with swearing! and i hardly see it as stooping any more than making baseless generalisations about people youve never met. would you like me to call you an arrogant \"person\" instead? ok donny, youre an arrogant person :D should you have some accurate and reasonable criticisms, then knock me out. but quit parading your ignorance by telling everyone that you\'ve never met how they came to their conclusions regarding any subject you happen to disagree with them on. |
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| Shakka |
I hate to jump into this catfight, but just to mention a few things since you're ting on capitalism.
Since when is competition bad? Competition breeds innovation. Open markets create buyers and sellers, not necessarily "winners and losers". When a transaction occurs it is mutually beneficial. Utility meters rise.;) |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
I hate to jump into this catfight, but just to mention a few things since you're ting on capitalism. |
im not ting on capitalism. merely pointing out some of its shortfalls. any system of organisation that involves humans is going to be imperfect.
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Since when is competition bad? Competition breeds innovation. Open markets create buyers and sellers, not necessarily \"winners and losers\". When a transaction occurs it is mutually beneficial. Utility meters rise.;) |
i didnt say that competition was bad. i said that it can (and does) create winners and losers. big corporations swallow smaller ones. workers lose their jobs to push up stock value etc.
again, im not taking a sideswipe at capitalism, but while it might be the most efficient and successful system of social & economic organisation, its hardly fool proof.
what does really me though, is a structure that engenders stratification is lauded as an equal opportunity system of organisation, which it clearly isnt. |
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| kush paintings |
| Shakka, I am a libertarian and of course full-heartedly support capitalism, with the belief that for our country there is no better economic system. Capitalism isn't perfect, however, and I believe the cycle of poverty is one problem that capitalism can't solve. I am by no means calling for a welfare state, as I believe this problem can be solved through a more efficient welfare system. However, my main point is that many people are grossly misinformed about those who are poor enough for welfare (mostly children) and what they do with the money they recieve (as a whole abuse is limited). That why I have been fired up here, since it seems donny absolutely refuses to accept that his conceptions about the welfare system are simply not true. |
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