|
Welfare State aka: America (pg. 3)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| ive never seen a libertarian express such sensible sentiments. much love for kush! ;) |
|
|
| ShadoWolf |
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/..._rev-veneer.htm
The Veneer of Civilization Utterly removed
By Theodore Dalrymple
The French socialist philosopher who was much ridiculed by Marx as a sentimental petit-bourgeois moralist, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, is now remembered mainly for his aphorism, so good that he repeated it many times, “Property is theft.” But in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the reverse of this celebrated but preposterous dictum has actually become true: Theft is property.
Pictures of the looting that followed the devastation in New Orleans have been flashed around the world. Everyone is, or at least pretends to be, shocked and horrified, as if the breakdown of law and order couldn’t happen here, wherever here happens to be. Smugness is, after all, one of the most pleasant of feelings; but for myself, I have very little doubt that it could, and would, happen where I live, in Britain, under the same or similar conditions. New Orleans shows us in the starkest possible way the reality of the thin blue line that protects us from barbarism and mob rule.
Of course, an unknown proportion of the looting must have arisen from genuine need and desperation. Who among us would not help himself to food and water if he and his family were hungry and thirsty, and there were no other source of such essentials to hand?
But the pictures that have been printed in the world’s newspapers are not those of people maddened by hunger and thirst, but those of people wading through water clutching boxes of goods that are clearly not for immediate consumption. There are pictures of people standing outside stores, apparently discussing what to take and how to transport it, and of men loading the trunks of cars with a dozen cartons of nonessentials. They are thinking ahead, to when the normal economy reestablishes itself, and the goods that they have stolen will have a monetary value once more.
Moreover, desperation for food and drink hardly explains why rescue helicopters should have been fired at, and a pediatric hospital attacked by a gang on the lookout for whatever it could find. The fact is - or perhaps I should more modestly say that it is likely - that the conditions brought about by Hurricane Katrina actually suit a ruthless element of society that wants to prolong them a little, to protect its unaccustomed power and freedom to extort. In conditions of anarchy, a crude and violent order, based upon brute force and psychopathic ruthlessness, soon establishes itself, which regards philanthropy not as a friend but as an enemy and a threat.
Is it enough just to sit back and sigh that human nature was ever thus, and that what has happened in New Orleans is exactly what any attentive reader of William Golding’s Lord of the Flies would have predicted? In that book, you might remember, a group of English schoolchildren, all from good and civilized homes, is cast ashore on an isolated tropical island without adult supervision. Before long, a kind of savage order exerts itself, with the most ruthless rising to positions of leadership. In other words, take external constraint away from even the most civilized (as the English still prided themselves on being in 1954, when the book was published), and savagery results because raw human nature decrees that it should.
Yet this is perhaps a little too easy and falsely comforting. After all, even in New Orleans, most of the people left in the city after the hurricane had devastated it were not looters, at least not of items carried off wholesale for future sale. The roaming gangs that so complicated the rescue effort, and that preyed on people more unfortunate than they, were a comparatively small proportion of the population. While it is true that all of us who were born with original sin (or whatever you want to call man’s fundamental natural flaws) are capable of savagery in the right circumstances, by no means all of us immediately lose our veneer of civilization in conditions of adversity, however great. A veneer may be thin, but this makes it more, not less, precious, and its upkeep more, not less, important.
Moreover, there is a very uncomfortable question that we have a duty to ask: Is the kind of behavior seen in New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina inevitable after a natural disaster of such proportions? If it isn’t, what does this tell us about New Orleans, the United States, and any other place - such as, I believe, Britain - where the same conduct would have made itself evident?
The experience of foreign survivors of the tsunami that caused such fatal damage throughout coastal Southeast Asia, and that of those who survived the hurricane in New Orleans, have been very different, or at least very differently reported. I suspect that the difference in reported experience is real rather than a journalistic artifact.
The survivors of the tsunami reported their terror at the size and destructive force of the wave, of course, but in no instance that I recall did they mention having been robbed by other survivors, let along going in fear of armed gangs. And there were no reports after the recent floods in Bombay, which produced destruction of homes and caused death on a scale not so very different from the hurricane in New Orleans, of looting or other forms of public disorder.
It goes without saying that the population of Bombay is very much poorer than that of New Orleans, incomparably so, in fact. Raw poverty, therefore, cannot explain the disorder in New Orleans and its absence in Bombay. Nor can comparative poverty, that last resort of the liberal who is eager to find an economic explanation of human frailty and wickedness, and who is aware that raw poverty per se will not do the trick. But the gulf between the rich and the poor in Bombay is, if anything, greater than the gulf between them in New Orleans, probably much greater. The ostentatious opulence of the rich in India exceeds that of the rich in America, while anyone who has walked through a Bombay slum will know that nothing remotely comparable exists, or indeed has ever existed, in America. So relative poverty does not explain the disorder in New Orleans, either.
How, then, are we to explain it? What is the underlying social pathology that accounts for it?
Most of the looters look bitter, angry, resentful, and vengeful as they go about what British burglars are inclined (in all seriousness) to call their “work.” The gangs are reported to have used racial taunts during their depredations. In all probability, the looters believe that, in removing as much as they can from stores, they are not so much stealing as performing acts of restitution or compensatory justice for wrongs received. They are not wronging the owners of the stores; on the contrary, the owners of the stores have wronged them over the years by restricting their access to the goods they covet and to which they believe they have a right. The hurricane has thus given them the opportunity to take justice into their own hands and settle old scores.
If this surmise is right, it is a terrible indictment of all the efforts undertaken in recent years by government welfare programs and institutions that practice affirmative action, such as universities, to ameliorate the condition of underclass blacks. It implies that the nihilistic alienation of the looters and gang members is as great as that to be found in Soweto at the height of the apartheid regime. Far from ameliorating the situation, then, the billions spent on welfare programs, and the intellectual ingenuity expended on justifying the unjustifiable in the form of affirmative action, have resulted in a hatred that is bitter and widespread enough among those condescended to in this manner to result in the scenes for which New Orleans will now long be remembered.
If Hurricane Katrina had struck New Orleans in 1950, when the black population could justly have complained of severe oppression and injustice, would we have witnessed what we have witnessed there in recent days? I cannot prove it, but I think the answer is no. And if this is the case, then we must ask ourselves what has lit the fire in the minds of men that they are prepared to shoot at their neighbors’ saviors.
Dr. Dalrymple, the Dietrich Weissman fellow of the Manhattan Institute, is a prison psychiatrist in Britain, and the author most recently of Our Culture, What’s Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses. |
|
|
| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
...but, to humour me, could you explain why the welfare system only exists because of serious cultural problems? |
I seem to get this feeling that you consider joblessness an affliction that not EVERYONE wants. As if having a job would keep some people from resorting to crime. This is partially where your theories fall on their philisophical butt.
To say that welfare stands isolated as a social affliction, is not doing justice (in this country at least) to the critical cultural issues I already addressed. But going another layer deeper, you neglected to accept the fact that our criminal justice system BLOWS! This fact has a HUGE impact on the choices poverty-level under-achievers make when it comes to a life of crime. There is little fear of any real punishment, and this criminal element knows it.
All of these issues are very much tied together;
Entitlement
Lack of prosecution for crimes commited, and
An environment that breeds mal-contents and encourages non-uniformity to the rest of society.
Throwing money at the problem has been a disaster, imho...and in the end, that's pretty much all Welfare is.
In this country, prior to this notion that Government had any responsibilty to take care of anyone, Churches and such took on the repsonsibilty and daily concerns of the less fortunate. Their benevolence worked just fine. And you never heard anyone say; "God owes me a free ride"..................no one would dare say such a thing...but yet, you hear this all the time now from your average Welfare recipient...that the government "owes" them this free ride...again, for the reasons already stated. It wasn't until sometime well after the American Civil War that Poiticians began to realize that the black voting block was there for the taking, but at the cost of "social programs"...and who cares about those? It's your tax dollars buying those votes, not the Candidates!
Being in a down-trodden class can and often does have many facets, and to say that money would solve all of their problems is not realistic at all. There was a study done once about the fact that a huge percentage of people who won the lottery, ended up losing it all back within 5 years! The reason was simple; People put themselves EXACTLY where they are in life. The great lie that we are "all created equal" is just that.
And the problem with most other countries imho, is this heavy sense of "socialism", a sense that we are all equal and should be treated exactly the same, because lord know the bum next to me in the bread line is as hard a worker as me...someone who obviously just needs a break or a hand-out until he can work again (because that's what he wants, right? He really wants to work...He's just like me!).
Frankly, I find such views to be ignorrant, and the lofty product of those who have never really spent any time with "the little people" so as to form a genuine and very real opinion about whom it is exactly they are dealing with!
The sooner we get back to a good old-fashioned dog-eat-dog world again, the sooner we will see a real drop in crime and un-employment. All we're doing is enabling the lazier element out there. And hence, no progress. |
|
|
| Capitalizt |
Donniebrasco, Amen brother.
There is nothing wrong with a dog-eat-dog world, given that two simple laws are STRICTLY enforced:
#1. No theft.
#2. No violence. |
|
|
| Fir3start3r |
While capitalism won't solve poverty is certainly does high-light it and it always will.
Why?
Because capitalism is a system that gives people the choice to take advantage of it or not.
Those that do, prosper and leave behind the rat race that they were in like everyone else.
Those that don't, either haven't figured out how to take advantage, or, are willing to sit, stew and point out the gap between them and the afluent.
Either way, choice is the main subject and for those that feel stuck in the welfare rut, there are many, many, many rags to riches stories that will counter their every arguement... |
|
|
| Reverend_Trance |
Capitalism is not perfect. But compared to socialist and communist systems, there is more room for class mobility. Communism focuses on equality. Socialist states have many taxes creating a gap between the very wealthy and the middle/working class.
Under capitalism, people move up the chain more freely.
Using invention, education, hard work or winning the lottert, can help you move up the socio-economic ladder. And it can also go the other way. Your company or invention fails or you get sued as well.
It would be interesting to find a chart that compares ecomomic classes by country. |
|
|
| NYCTrancefan |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
I seem to get this feeling that you consider joblessness an affliction that not EVERYONE wants. As if having a job would keep some people from resorting to crime. This is partially where your theories fall on their philisophical butt.
To say that welfare stands isolated as a social affliction, is not doing justice (in this country at least) to the critical cultural issues I already addressed. But going another layer deeper, you neglected to accept the fact that our criminal justice system BLOWS! This fact has a HUGE impact on the choices poverty-level under-achievers make when it comes to a life of crime. There is little fear of any real punishment, and this criminal element knows it.
All of these issues are very much tied together;
Entitlement
Lack of prosecution for crimes commited, and
An environment that breeds mal-contents and encourages non-uniformity to the rest of society.
Throwing money at the problem has been a disaster, imho...and in the end, that's pretty much all Welfare is.
In this country, prior to this notion that Government had any responsibilty to take care of anyone, Churches and such took on the repsonsibilty and daily concerns of the less fortunate. Their benevolence worked just fine. And you never heard anyone say; "God owes me a free ride"..................no one would dare say such a thing...but yet, you hear this all the time now from your average Welfare recipient...that the government "owes" them this free ride...again, for the reasons already stated. It wasn't until sometime well after the American Civil War that Poiticians began to realize that the black voting block was there for the taking, but at the cost of "social programs"...and who cares about those? It's your tax dollars buying those votes, not the Candidates!
Being in a down-trodden class can and often does have many facets, and to say that money would solve all of their problems is not realistic at all. There was a study done once about the fact that a huge percentage of people who won the lottery, ended up losing it all back within 5 years! The reason was simple; People put themselves EXACTLY where they are in life. The great lie that we are "all created equal" is just that.
And the problem with most other countries imho, is this heavy sense of "socialism", a sense that we are all equal and should be treated exactly the same, because lord know the bum next to me in the bread line is as hard a worker as me...someone who obviously just needs a break or a hand-out until he can work again (because that's what he wants, right? He really wants to work...He's just like me!).
Frankly, I find such views to be ignorrant, and the lofty product of those who have never really spent any time with "the little people" so as to form a genuine and very real opinion about whom it is exactly they are dealing with!
The sooner we get back to a good old-fashioned dog-eat-dog world again, the sooner we will see a real drop in crime and un-employment. All we're doing is enabling the lazier element out there. And hence, no progress. |
Your statements are as off base as the claims you make of others views being. You speak about entitlements, crimes not being prosecuted and an environment that breeds malcontents. I will put it this way to you as a black person who immigrated to this country, lives in Brooklyn and see what you speak about you are full of stereotypical commentaries. Where are these entitlements that you speak of seeing all these poor, welfare beneficiaries flock to the polls, trust me those individuals do not vote, rest assured of that. The jails are full of blacks so how are they not being prosecuted for crimes as you suppose, about the only thing I agree with is that the environment does create problems. Are white welfare recipients in the mid-west for example recieving entitlements brasco. Before you say this is not white and black, either way you would still be wrong. With all that stated I am a full blown capitalist and would have it no other way as long as the white collar crooks are thrown in jail as well as the poverty stricken, welfare recipient who steals from hardworking members of their community, makes you wonder who is not being prosecuted for crimes.:conf: They both are a bunch of lowlife crooks to me:haha:
Have you spent time with the "little people" before going into a diatribe about such people. I do not disagree with your view of lazy people refusing to work hard it is the other elements thrown in their that goes astray of the argument. I would not want a socialist society in America ala Europe and it will never happen. That would be true entitlement, just look at the German elections, on ZDF, Tageschau and Deutsche Welle online all you see is Eastern Germans complaining about benefits being cut and the newly formed Left Party promising them more benefits in a sluggish economy, like they could ever pay for it, their idea is tax the rich. That is true pandering, I don't see that in the black community, at least where I live, thankfully. America doesn't and will never believe in socialism, you earn your keep and if you are lucky born into it, that is the American way and I don't mind it. Why should another man give me his money. |
|
|
| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by NYCTrancefan
I will put it this way to you as a black person who immigrated to this country, lives in Brooklyn and see what you speak about you are full of stereotypical commentaries. |
No offense, but if you are an immigrant, I doubt you fully understand that sense of entitlement of which I speak. I have known black peope from the continent of Africa, for example, who have told me out-right that they consider many black Americans to be lazy and entitlement-minded. I'm certainly not saying they all are or even a large proportion are, but there is a large enough element among this group that fits the bill. ;)
| quote: | | Originally posted by NYCTrancefan The jails are full of blacks so how are they not being prosecuted for crimes as you suppose... |
Bad example. Just because there is a larger percentage of black people in prison does not mean that they are being dis-proportionately prosecuted. Besides, I have had more than enough personal and direct experience with the crappy Criminal Justice system in this country to know that it takes nothing short of the Red-Sea being parted for someone to do any real time in jail for their crimes.
| quote: | | Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Are white welfare recipients in the mid-west for example recieving entitlements brasco...Have you spent time with the "little people" before going into a diatribe about such people... |
I am only speaking of the black welfare element in New Orleans, because that is the topic at hand and they are the dominent welfare group in that area...but I have also had enough direct and personal experience with "white-trash" welfare types in the mid-west (I lived there through my teen-age years, and I can tell you that they are not much better in terms of their abuse of the system.........only real difference being the sense of "entitlement", which this group seems to lack).
So yes, I have lived in poverty amongst this element...I have also lived in upper-class luxury amongst the other element....so I feel qualified to speak about both elements in this country.
| quote: | | Originally posted by NYCTrancefan America doesn't and will never believe in socialism.... |
Don't count on it...that's EXACTLY where the Democratic Party is trying to take us. ;) |
|
|
| kush paintings |
Donny, seriously you mock Pat Roberts, but you are spreading the same nonsense as he is. You have no true idea about the welfare system in the U.S., other than of course you very reliable friends, all of whom are undoubtedly walking encyclopedias. This is, I believe, the third time I have posted this, but do some research on welfare in the U.S. It took me all of a couple minutes, the highlights of which I have provided in this thread.
One slight problem in your "fullproof" theory that the problems in New Orleans are because of blacks and/or the welfare system. Perhaps one of the most powerful hurricanes to hit the U.S. occured in 1938 along the New England coastline. Providence was one of the hardest hit cities. Much like New Orleans, there was a levee problem (or at least river over flowing) and the city was flooded. Guess what happened? LOOTING! I just saw video of this very event, looting included, and guess what race the looters were. WHITE! Now, sure you can see this perhaps as propaganda or whatever, only problem is the documentary I watched was from the 80's. History does have a tendency to repeat itself. So, the question becomes not is our welfare system leading to a creation of a sub-society of lazy african americans who will do anything given the chance, but is the idea of individualism that is so deeply engrained in the subconcious of all American lead to perhaps such selfish acts that have been repeated throughout history? Or is this just simply a reflection on human nature, black, white, yellow, cayanne, deep forest green? |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
I seem to get this feeling that you consider joblessness an affliction that not EVERYONE wants. As if having a job would keep some people from resorting to crime. |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
The sooner we get back to a good old-fashioned dog-eat-dog world again, the sooner we will see a real drop in crime and un-employment.
|
please reconcile these two statements. you havent explained either of them.
from my point of view, employment certainly does prevent SOME people from resorting to crime. your contention that a dog eat dog world lowers the crime rate is, quite simply, laughable. the welfare state (esp in its modern form) is a relatively new phenomenon; the "lower" classes as you term them have been commiting crime for a very very long time.
and you *still* havent shown how welfare promotes criminal activity.
(again) you have gone off on a tangent re the criminal justice system. whereas some of your arguments may be valid, you havent connected the dots to how this is related to welfare, in the US or elsewhere. i still dont see how youve actually connected concepts such as "entitlement" to crime.
are you arguing that all criminals are welfare recipients? youd really need to prove that for me to believe you.
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
An environment that breeds mal-contents and encourages non-uniformity to the rest of society. |
what environment is this that you speak of? who or what created it? surely not a welfare system that is less than 100 years old? antisocial, deviant behaviour has been occuring since humans got around to forming civilisations.
id say a system of social stratification that gives hope and choices with one hand while taking them away with the other, *could* also be responsible for breeding mal-contents.
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
In this country, prior to this notion that Government had any responsibilty to take care of anyone, Churches and such took on the repsonsibilty and daily concerns of the less fortunate. Their benevolence worked just fine |
and you base this on what? do you think there were studies into the standards of living for pre-welfare welfare recipients? how could you possibly know how your entire country's poor existed at this time? where are you examples?
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
It wasn't until sometime well after the American Civil War that Poiticians began to realize that the black voting block was there for the taking, but at the cost of "social programs"...and who cares about those? It's your tax dollars buying those votes, not the Candidates! |
so, african americans are responsible for the entire formation of the US' welfare system??? again youre bringing race into a debate about the US' welfare system, and you *still* havent shown how they are related. are you arguing that the majority of welfare recipients are black? that many blacks are welfare recipients? either way, i would like to see some research and evidence.
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
The reason was simple; People put themselves EXACTLY where they are in life. The great lie that we are "all created equal" is just that.
|
-half right. yes, it is a great lie; not only are we all born with different skills, talents & weaknesses, we are also all born into a variety of social, economic, political & environmental situations that harm or aid our own personal struggles. so how can you possibly reconcile that with "people put themselves EXACTLY where they are in life?"
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
Frankly, I find such views to be ignorrant, and the lofty product of those who have never really spent any time with "the little people" so as to form a genuine and very real opinion about whom it is exactly they are dealing with! |
and i find it quite ignorant that you can possibly try and paint an entire section of society with the same brush; based solely on their welfare-recipient status. especially since i still havent seen any evidence of an in-depth analysis; certainly not one that takes into account the remarkably different welfare systems in the advanced liberal democracies. |
|
|
| drizzt81 |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
OUR tax dollars fund the housing and feeding of this scum in "The Projects"...how ironic is that? We're actually PAYING criminals to live in our cities, organize and victimize us...it's NUTS!! |
I have an excellent idea:
Let's round them all up and send them to Auschwitz! That will make sure that this 'scum' gets taken care of once and for all.
on to a different note:
| quote: | Originally posted by Reverend_Trance
THe welfare system is a joke. I used to work in a grocery store. The people who used food stamps usually bought pizza, pop and candy. Health food is not in their vocabulary.
|
Health food is more expensive than junk food. That is a well known fact that I can re-establish every time I go to the grocery store here in Pittsburgh, PA.
that is not to say that the USA's welfare system is anything to write home about. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| ^^ hehe, how'd i know that someone with such a cool username would agree with me :D |
|
|
|
|
