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Does Religion Create A More Moral Society? Not According to This Study
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| occrider |
First off, ignore the assumptions and poor inferences from the article and stick with the statistical findings. The author tends to confuse correlation with causation. With that caveat in mind, it is interesting to note that there appears to be a definite correlation between amoral behavior and religion. Thus while we can’t say that religion causes this behavior ( yet ;)? ), we can most certainly say that more religion does little to improve society.
| quote: | The Times
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.
The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.
It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.
Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.
The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.
“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.
“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”
Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.
He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.
The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.
Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”
He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.
Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.
He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.
“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.
“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...troberstonrules
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| HardTranceProd |
Hey,
Very interesting article, although you failed to mention another important difference b/w the US and all the other Western countries: that the other countries are all socialist, while the US staunchly anti-socialist. This also has significant repercussions.
What would happen if you had a very religious, but socialist country, such as Portugal and Ireland? Do you have any stats on those countries?
And conversely, what would happen in a secular, but highly capitalist country: like Singapore? |
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| Yoepus |
Pure bullocks.
How about comparing non-Christian countries?
i.e. Turkey, Morocco, Japan, India, etc.
If he did so he would find an amazing revelation that brings a correlation between democracy and judeo-Christian beliefs of 1!
:eek:
:rolleyes: |
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| LiquidX |
It depends on how religion is taught and used. People tend to hide behind the mask of religion.. which is a common problem on today's society. You can not enforce it, but with good examples society would definetly change.
My theory is.. IF you are born and raised in a religious environment, where everything is censored to you, once you are exposed to all the things you never saw or what-not.. that will make you a rebel.. why?!?!.. Temptetion will be stronger then if you were to be tested all along while applying your own religious beliefs to whats right or wrong. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
Hey,
Very interesting article, although you failed to mention another important difference b/w the US and all the other Western countries: that the other countries are all socialist, while the US staunchly anti-socialist. This also has significant repercussions.
What would happen if you had a very religious, but socialist country, such as Portugal and Ireland? Do you have any stats on those countries?
And conversely, what would happen in a secular, but highly capitalist country: like Singapore? |
Interesting theory. There is data on Portugal and Ireland as well, and interestingly enough, despite Portugal's socialism, it seems to be an outlier, much like the US, for amoral behavior. I'm not sure how well your theory pans out, however, because first, not all European countries are “socialist”. They may be more liberal than say the US, however, that’s not the same thing. Great Britain and Australia are economically somewhat closely aligned with the US. I would say Great Britain is economically closer to the US system than it is to Scandinavia, France, or Germany with respect to attitudes about business and social reform. Yet, I’m not seeing that kind of correlation with the data at all:
 Legend
A = Australia
C = Canada
D = Denmark
E = Great Britain
F = France
G = Germany
H = Holland
I = Ireland
J = Japan
L = Switzerland
N = Norway
P = Portugal
R = Austria
S = Spain
T = Italy
U = United States
W = Sweden
Z = New Zealand
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Pure bullocks.
How about comparing non-Christian countries?
i.e. Turkey, Morocco, Japan, India, etc.
If he did so he would find an amazing revelation that brings a correlation between democracy and judeo-Christian beliefs of 1!
:eek:
:rolleyes: |
Well Japan is in there. It wouldn't quite do to compare others because they would be 2nd or 3rd world countries. But Turkey and Japan would make that correlation less than 1. |
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| HardTranceProd |
There is one other crucial factor you're forgetting...
CLIMATE.
I argue that people in the Northern regions have more moderate personalities compared with the hot, flaring tempers that prevail in the Southern ones where temperatures soar and the climate is more tropical.
You can see this dichotomy even in the US, where states in New England have less crime and social problems than ones in the South (and Canada consequently even less crime). And even in Europe, the cultures with a Southern (Mediterranean) climate are marred by Mafia (e.g. Sicily) and staunch religiosity.
BTW Occrider, we really should get together for a beer sometime, since we both live in DC: I get the feeling we think alike on many topics. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Well Japan is in there. |
Well perhaps next time you should cite the study in addition to a bad news article about the study ;)
In addition notes like "take bible literaly" and "absolutely believe in God" (as opposed to Gods) bring bias against all non-Judeau-Christian religions.
| quote: |
It wouldn't quite do to compare others because they would be 2nd or 3rd world countries. |
Why not? If the argument is that religion causes social amorality then you have to accommodate for all other factors, government being one.
| quote: |
But Turkey and Japan would make that correlation less than 1. |
No, I am saying all Christian (and Jewish) nations are democracies. Therefore Christanity must cause democracy... :rolleyes:
Like I said earlier: this study is bullocks. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Well perhaps next time you should cite the study in addition to a bad news article about the study ;)
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Well I was unaware of the location of the article until someone requested more info ... but here you go:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
| quote: |
In addition notes like "take bible literaly" and "absolutely believe in God" (as opposed to Gods) bring bias against all non-Judeau-Christian religions.
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Well that would only seemingly impact Japan with respect to the first question. They are monotheistic so the second question would still be applicable.
| quote: |
Why not? If the argument is that religion causes social amorality then you have to accommodate for all other factors, government being one.
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Because that would introduce sampling bias in that there are too many discrepenancies within the sampling group. Be focusing the study on prosperous democracies you isolate out some of the causal factors in amoral behavior such as third world conditions, dictatorial governments, corruption, etc. The idea is to make the sampling size as similar as possible in every respect except for the hypothesis being studied ... in this case secularism. However, considering how 3rd world countries are predominantly religious as well, I think it would only hurt your cause.
| quote: |
No, I am saying all Christian (and Jewish) nations are democracies. Therefore Christanity must cause democracy... :rolleyes:
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Well that's simply a strawman. If one wanted to study whether that were true or not, one would expand the sampling size beyond prosperous democracies to include non-democracies as well. Perhaps a better way to conduct a study investigating that would be to sample 2nd and 3rd world countries (as they have commonality) and compare type of religion to democratic freedoms. There are plenty of Christian Eastern European countries that probably fail in that regard as much as non-Christian countries.
| quote: |
Like I said earlier: this study is bullocks. |
The study isn't bollocks, the assumptions asserted in the article are, and I pointed that out myself. The statistical findings are valid, and my thread title points out a valid statistical inference from the study, that religiosity does not make society more moral, and the absense of religion does not result in amoral behavior much to the chagrin of televangelist's I'm certain. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| I have to agree with Yoepus on this one. Plus the study contradicts itself. In order for a society to be religious, they need to actually follow the teaching of that religion. If they don't, it's not a religious society. (Perhaps religious is a poor choice of terms to use here, what I mean by religious is practicing.) Just going to church/temple/mosque and believing in God doesn't make you religious. Practicing your faith does. |
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| LiquidX |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I have to agree with Yoepus on this one. Plus the study contradicts itself. In order for a society to be religious, they need to actually follow the teaching of that religion. If they don't, it's not a religious society. (Perhaps religious is a poor choice of terms to use here, what I mean by religious is practicing.) Just going to church/temple/mosque and believing in God doesn't make you religious. Practicing your faith does. |
Exactly. |
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| MrSquirrel |
Let's let the more religious take over more than they have so the disease and murder and rampant debauchery they are being a part of will kill them off for us.
How bout that?
:toothless
MrS |
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