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a lesson in humility and humanity (pg. 2)
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| plastikE |
how does that saying go?? ''If You Can't Beat 'Em, Join 'Em!''
:D:D |
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| tiesto14 |
maybe i am wrong and if i am sorry.....
but it seems like u are saying that native Americans (Indians, Cherokees ETC...) are lazy and dont give abck to our American society and just sit back and take government aid....if thats is what you are saying....then i will respond with the following
Native Americans are the last group of people who we should be concerned about when it comes to leetching of our givernment and doing nothing in return or progressing themselves....we should be more concerned with ANOTHER RACE of people (and i am sure u can figure it out,,, and if u cant then your wacked out)....many people more then Native AMericans in this race...live off welfare and EXPECT it for some reason, they have 3 babies at 13 years old and drop out of school, commit crimes, vandalize their own neighborhoods, and still rant and rave that they were slaves (hint*hint) and the white man owes them something.....
ARE U F**CKING SERIOUS...we owe them NADA - ZILCH....they need to get off their lazy asses and get educated and get a job like everyone else....i am not saying all people in this race are like this, but the majority are according to census polls and studies...so dont try and argue the fact....if u wanna test me go look it up..u will see...
anyway welfare is a privelige and is ovberly abused in our society....people on it should have ENFORCED term limits...and when those limits are up thats it no more money to you... i have had a job since i was 13 years old...and dont blah blah me that its hard for them to get jobs...thats a load of BS...when people say that its an exscuse....
so therfore, Native AMericans dont nearly leetch of our government like that other race i was talking about does....
i cant wait to get yelled at for this post...so bring it on...i have strong arguements ready to go.... :D |
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| Renegade |
^^You sound like a nice fella tiesto14. Take that white, conic hat off your head before you think about spouting antogonistic bull like that again.
Blatant racism aside, I think you have a pretty shallow grasp on what the issues are here anyway buddy. Take this passage:
we should be more concerned with ANOTHER RACE of people (and i am sure u can figure it out,,, and if u cant then your wacked out)....many people more then Native AMericans in this race...live off welfare and EXPECT it for some reason, they have 3 babies at 13 years old and drop out of school, commit crimes, vandalize their own neighborhoods, and still rant and rave that they were slaves (hint*hint) and the white man owes them something.....
Here you identify teenage pregnancy, lack of education, crime and the remorse felt for a tragic past as seperate and almost uncaused facets of the African-American reality, which, even though I'm about as geographically detached from the situation as possible, strikes me as a somewhat ignorant perspective. Are you absolving the caucasian-Americans of any responsibility with regards to the plight of the black man? Are the white, middle-class Americans really doing enough to help their fellow citizens? Can you be sure of that? Can the blacks really help themselves when there's a million white biggots like you in suburban America ready to push them back into the ground whenever they try to get up?
I am not argiung that there isn't, generally, a higher perponderance of crime and a lower level of education amongst the black American community. I'm not a fool, those are the facts. But to cite these as reasons to rebuke the race - on the whole or otherwise - demonstrates what a shallow reasoning mind you possess. Why do you suppose this is the case, tiesto14? Why is the standard of living amongst black Americans, on the whole, so poor? Do you think they actually wish to be far more prone to illeteracy, incarceration and unemployment than white Amercians? Did they ask to be born into low-income squalor, in areas infested with crime and violence? You honestly believe they choose to live that way? What would you have them do? I can tell you've studied social psychology in great depth ( :rolleyes: ), would you mind telling me what the cause of the problem is then? Is it rooted in a pseudo-masochistic, misguided will crying out for a sympathetic response from the "empowered" race? Or is their plight an inevitable consequence of white imperialism stretching back to the dawn of civilisation? Do you actually give a what the reasoning behind the problems might be in the first place? Or are you just using these issues as a transparent veil to flaunt your chauvanistic racialism?
I'm would not be so foolish as to suggest that these problems are the fault of this generation of white Americans. Racism, unfortunately for your cross burning red-neck buddies, is on the decline, slowly, by and large. This generation of white Amercians can hardly be held responsible for the travesties inflicted on the blacks hundereds of years ago, I'm not arguing that. But then, what is this generation doing to try and reconcile the problem? I have never, never, in my 18 years heard an American president (apart from Abraham Lincoln) address the obvious issues pertaining to the standard of, and nature of black American existence. I cannot think of any policies, directed especially towards alleviating the problems of America, drafted in recent years. It took decades of neglect and violence to create the problems inherent in black America today, and it will take the same amount of altruistic humanitarianism to reverse them. African-Americans need special attention - by means of welfare or anything else - to stand a chance of undoing these decades, centuries of mistreatment.
But then, of course, I'm just an Australian who couldn't possibly understand the situation properly yeah?
In Australia, we do have a situation, that is worse, far worse than that in America. The Aboriginal Australians have the worst average standard of living out of any race, yet they live in a country with one of the highest. It has only been in the past few decades that the Australian Commonwealth has been able to recognise the Aborigines as anything resembling human, yet white, middle-class, closet rednecks wonder why the Aborigines are unable to help themselves. "Get an education", they say, "get a job. Help yourselves for god's sake". Nearly two-hundred years of mistreatment and they expect the Aborigines to transcend the abhorrent conditions inherent in their community to stumble upon an education and a good job? When our weak, yet unquestionably self-righteous prime-minister refuses to acknowlegde that the whites are in no way responsible for the current situation? To acknowldge, remorsefully, that 1788 marked the beginning of more than two centuries of pain for an entire race? If our prime-minsiter, the man who has more power than anyone else to reverse the situation, refues to acknowlegde there is a problem - much less that it needs to be reconciled - what chance do they stand?
Do you see the parallels here?
Anyway, I don't think there's any getting through to people like you. Believe what you want to believe, tiesto14, if trampling on under-privilaged races makes you feel like a big man. You have "strong arguments ready to go" and I'd be interested to hear them.
Rational bigotry, eh? That's a new one. |
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| SmellsExcellent |
| quote: | Originally posted by Miss Proximus
I have 0.00 knowledge about the suubject[/B] |
Thanks for being specific. By saying 0 you may have fractions of knowledge that were bing rounded down, but now we know exactly how much! :p
Ahh my head hurts from reading all of this intelligibla conversation. , I cant listen to this song and read at the same time! Kinda like trying to "hear" something (lyric samples at this point in time) and read something at the same time - dosnt work.
Sorry, BSE, for ruining you thread! But I owe you one. HAH
Later,
Marc
oooohhh another tune just came on.. for those of you who dont have Aphex Twin - Windowlicker... go get it, and while your at it, try have a peek at the video, its the funniest thing ive ever seen.
CHeers! |
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| randummboy |
okay.. to start with, this thread has gotten totally off topic.. {b.s.e.} was originally trying to asK how what the settlers did to the natives is any different than commercialisim today, and why we should be giving back to them.. the main issue was not that native-americans are lazy..
also, i would like to state that i am not a bit racist, and i never judge people by thier appearance or the color of thier skin.. i am just trying to respond to some comments made by others...
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
Do you think they actually wish to be far more prone to illeteracy, incarceration and unemployment than white Amercians? Did they ask to be born into low-income squalor, in areas infested with crime and violence? You honestly believe they choose to live that way? |
well, theres people born into poverty everyday, reguardless of race..
yeah, it can be difficult at times, but i think that all humans have the same potentiaL, although they may not allways have the same opprotunities and priveledges. if a person wants to be something, or have something bad enough (i.e. - a middle class life), all he/she has to do is work as hard as they can, and keep thier mind set on it..
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
I cannot think of any policies, directed especially towards alleviating the problems of America, drafted in recent years. It took decades of neglect and violence to create the problems inherent in black America today, and it will take the same amount of altruistic humanitarianism to reverse them. |
hmm.. do you have any policies to suggest?? from a legal standpoint, i think the united states are about as fair as we can get.. we have laws for fairness in education, employment, ect.. i think that the problems are not in the system, but rather in certain individuals..
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
African-Americans need special attention - by means of welfare or anything else - to stand a chance of undoing these decades, centuries of mistreatment. |
well, if i'm not mistaken, the united states is based on human equality.. back then, people seriously did not think that blacks were humans, so therefor neglected to give them rights.. but now days, everyone is playing by the same rules. do you think that giving one race special attention would be fair?? i sure dont..
okay, and this comment is directed towards americans in general..
i've noticed that welfare has been brought up a few times.. i think there should be like a limit of time or whatever.. i greatly support welfare, but its to often abused.. i think that anyone can find a job to support themselfs and thier families, its just a matter of having to will power to go into work everyday and do your job.. |
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| RavingLunatic |
Wow great post renegade, good job putting tiesto14 in his place, i'd love to hear these points he has ready.. :rolleyes:
anyway, I'd just like to state a few things about the whole native situation here.
I will preface my points by saying that I am NOT a racist, I have native friends, white friends, all sorts of different people in my life of different nationalities, religions, and skin colors.
I would be considered caucasian, I was born in canada. My ancestors were french, ukranian, english, and from various other "white" countries. My parents, and grandparents, and even great grandparents, have all lived in this country all their lives, it was at least 4 generations ago that anybody in my ancestry was a "newcomer" to this land. I consider this place to be my home, and I am proud to call myself a canadian.
Before any white people came to live here, there were people here already, call them aboriginal, native, indian, or what have you, they were here first. These people lived in harmony with nature in this part of the world, taking only what they needed and being sure to respect the land. I would have liked the chance to have been here back then, before "we" got here.
The white man arrived in ships from europe hundreds of years ago. With them, they brought many material things the natives of this land wanted, like blankets, tools, seeds etc. they also brought things the natives didn't want. like alcohol, guns, diseases like small pox etc. the white man came here, and declared this land his. canada was originally a colony of britain, but we gained our independance from britain eventually. the fact that there were people here already didn't seem to matter much to them at the time.
the native people were put onto reserves. their children were taken away from them, and put into residential schools. these places forced the young native children to speak english. the natives were mentally, verbally, and physically abused. some were even sexually abused. this was all part of an effort to homogenize the people of canada, to make them all the same, to take away the native culture and language, and replace it with the new "canadian" one.
there were many other things done to the natives in the past, of which I don't know all the details, but suffice to say, that the white man, was not nice to them in the beginning.
These events horrify me. They make me hate my ancestors for doing this. they give me a feeling of deep compassion for the people affected. and I believe those people need to be compensated for what they have suffered.
BUT, the question is how do you compensate? money? will that bring back the natives way of life? land? will they be able to go back to the way it was? an apology? will that make them feel any better?
The problem with any sort of compensation is that the people who had these acts perpetrated against them are long dead now. and the people who made the decisions to do it, are also long dead.
and I think that it is racism pure and simple, to hold accountable the white race for these acts, just as it is racism to give compensation, preference, or different sets of rules to people based on their race alone.
A summary of a few policies in canadian law:
Natives can apply for and receieve a "status card" that designates their band info, and certifies that they are in fact native. anyone of pure native descent can get one of these cards, or anyone with at least 1 grandparent native (i'm pretty sure about this, although the policy may have changed since I looked it up)
Once a person has a card, they are entitled to special tax breaks, they don't pay tax on cigarettes, alcohol, or gasoline. They are allowed to live on reserves.
They need lower scores in high school to be admitted into college. (and it is all paid for by the government, I worked my ass off washing dishes for 3 years to get my diploma, while some of my native friends got theres for free)
Certain jobs in the government are open only to natives(in direct violation to laws banning racial prejudice in hiring practices)
Certain jobs require a certain quota of natives(and other minority groups) to work in the position. this means that while the native may score lower on the test, than say, a white person(for example), they may get the job anyway while the white person is out of a job, because all the "native" positions have not been filled yet, but the "white" ones have. a clearly racist policy if you ask me.
High Schools have a special native counsellor for native issues, there are special native support groups around town (govt funded of course)
I think the way to stop racism is to elimate all racist policies from our laws, end preferential treatment, and start realizing that we are all one people regardless of the color of our skin. I didn't oppress anyone, so why should my tax dollars pay for compensation? and my native friends were never oppressed so why should they get all these benefits? what's happened in the past was horrible, but the path forward should be clear, to end racism, we need only to stop practicing it. |
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| randummboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by RavingLunatic
I think the way to stop racism is to elimate all racist policies from our laws, end preferential treatment, and start realizing that we are all one people regardless of the color of our skin. I didn't oppress anyone, so why should my tax dollars pay for compensation? and my native friends were never oppressed so why should they get all these benefits? what's happened in the past was horrible, but the path forward should be clear, to end racism, we need only to stop practicing it. |
couldn't have said it better myself!! |
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| The Greek |
| the welfare situation is thankfully improving dramatically at least in new york city thanks to the mayors policies. on the race issue i think the biggest mistake a government can make is to try to compensate for past actions. the law should immediately be changed to a completely neutral state. why? because there would always be opposing opinions on how much compensation should be carried out. where do you draw the line? thats where the problem lies. on the native issue, i am not well - read on the subject so i wont say too much. yes its true that the settlers too the land from the natives, but that was then and this is now. its like me, being greek, wanting back all of byzantium because we were there before on all that land. on the african issue, there is always one very important fact that is absolutely always left out of every argument on this topic - the africans were BOUGHT from the african kings. and i dont want anyone disptuing this fact because not only have i read this in numerous encyclopeidas, but i saw it on PBS, a government runned channel. and why am i always called a racist when i disagree with an african? thats one thing I really cant stand, but its true. nothign racist said here, all fact, so i dont want anyone annoyng me with politically correct statements and sensitivity training. :D |
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| Juricimo |
| quote: | Originally posted by {b.s.e.}
well, that's because as a whole, they are an uneducated bunch. heh, i'm not being fecesious here, it's the truth. but it's not like they can't stop this cycle, they can stay in school, they don't have to start fights, or live off welfare. i don't blame the government for helping them out, they are humans; they are in need. but for them to neglect their duty to their country and leech off a system design to help out the needy is sheer laziness and trash. now, this sort of behavior is not limited to natives, but a large percent of natives are unemployed or uneducated. unfortunately, they are victims of a viscious cycle, and for that i empathize, they aren't to be blamed for being dealt a bad hand in life, they are to be blamed for not breaking the chain and creating a better life for themselves, and not relying on what happened to their ancestors 200 years ago to make a living. |
wOOt wOOt....i was kinda gonna state something like this^^^ but you said it 10 times better so i'll just support your statements here...
what do you think of affirmative action....i think it's bull:p
>JM< |
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| {b.s.e.} |
*reads tiesto14's message and has a good hearty chuckle. read's renegade's reply and has a heartier chuckle.*
denied. :D
well, nothing was really resolved was there? heh, oh well, i wasn't really expecting to. i was just irked, and now i'm not really irked anymore. :D i think we should just stop before we all get beligerantly racist. ;)
late
**edit: marc, this ain't ova, suckah. :D |
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| RavingLunatic |
I'd like to see this thread continue..
for the record I think affirmative action is bull too..
and also, named confusingly. what the hell is that supposed to mean?
I think it's so people too lazy to find out don't know what it really is (racism) |
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