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Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths (pg. 3)
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
No it isn't. Pointing out the mistakes of each party involded doesn't constitute shifting blame from party A to B or vice-vers, it's simply acknowledging what each party has done wrong. |
I'd like to hear what you consider shifting blame. Just a few concrete examples would be nice. As I read your reasoning here, there can be no such thing as shifting blame. Furthermore, you didn't really say what you mean by "excusing". What does it mean to excuse to you? How would one go about excusing the rioters (since you're suuposedly not doing it)?
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Trancaholic, you're a smart guy. You should understand better than anybody. In most cases if two parties are in conflict, it is usually not the case that either party is entirely free of blame or entirely guilty. |
Well, two things. First of all you're using induction here, and even from a generalization of previous conflicts ("usually"). Personally I have been in conflicts where I did nothing wrong (didn't know the aggressor at all), invalidating the universality of the generalization, so I hesitate to accept your argument.
Second, you are failing to realize that this is *not* a conflict between two parties. If we for the moment being accept as truth that employers and police officers are discriminating against these people, then we would have a conflict of at least eight parties: the rioters, the large group of people being discriminated against, the shop-owners, the discriminating employers, the discriminating police officers, police officers, innocent people, and the French government. The simplistic dichotomy does not apply here. Maybe you've been listening to your president for too long.;)
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Although this situation sucks, I don't think it's unusuall for a desperate and discontent group anywhere (especially one that isn't receiving equal treatment/is discriminated against), regardelss of what group it is, to reach a point where they just won't take it anymore and voice their frustration whichever way they can.
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Please be concrete: What injustice is it that these people have been denied? It's all very vague to me, and the groundbreaking article that this thread started with does nothing to rectify that situation.
If the whole shebang is the razzias by the police, there are safety measures build into modern democracies that the people feeling mistreated should use. Fine, they might not all be sufficiently educated to use these, but as has been mentioned before, they do have among them people with quite good educations, and they do have a obviously well-functioning network and sense of organization. So the lack of education/stupidy is not an excuse for not doing so. Furthermore, if these people think that there is some sort of racial motivation behind the police actions, they should be able to document this from police reports. My guess is that once you condition on age, precinct, and time of day, you'll find that all races are stopped and harassed equally often.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm not an apologist. If there's a serious imbalance when a certain situation is being assessed and analyzed (especially when one group is unfairly being largely blamed for it), I view it a responsibility to balance the scale. The reason why the "apologists" are repeating the same thing over and over again is because people are ignoring or not giving due consideration to different aspects of the issue. |
If we start directing our attention away from the riots and onto the troubles of stupid people in France, then we have shown the rioters that riots work. Same thing with giving in to a kidnapper/terrorist. Moreover, I fail to see the rational reason why "due consideration" should be raised for an issue, because of something like this? Either the issue is worth investigating, or it is not.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I think you really missed the point here. You're focusing on micros instead of understanding the macro. The gist of the arcticle isn't a few incidences of unfair treatment, it's a repetitive pattern of unjust and unequall treatemnet. Ask a black man in the US how cops hasstle them and even arrest them for no reason (yes, this still happens). Quoting the article:
If someone where treated in this way consistanly, I wouldnt say "get over it." It's a fairly serious issue that needs to be addressed. What do you not understand about that? |
Ok, you want to talk macro. How's this?
Are you aware that you are concluding based on a few first or second hand tales? What kind of evidence do you have for concluding that horrific levels of discrimination/injustice is taking place? That kind of adoption of beliefs is exactly the way racial prejudices become accepted. Do you *want* to believe that the French mistreats its immigrants?
If there's any truth to the "mistreatment", then be concrete: What, where, and how much. Then we can start talking about it. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
Doesn't a "successful" Islamic terrorist make life more difficult for all the law abiding muslims than it does for the rest of us?
Do Islamic "insurgents" in Iraq make life more difficult for the people of Iraq or for american soldiers?
Jyhad isn't a war fought by muslims agains the west. Jyhad is a war fought by muslims against themselves. Just so happens that attacking the west is the most efficient way of doing it... |
What I don't understand is why "all the law abiding muslims" aren't more vocal about their position regarding extremism. In predominantly Christian and Jewish societies you have very heated debates between extremists/fundamentalists (e.g. the evolution debate, the gay-marriage one, the pull out of Gaza, etc.), but we very rarely hear of similar schisms among muslims. My personal experience is that my muslim friends, who are not extremists, tend to get defensive of the extremists when I talk to them about current events, but I have yet to have any of my friends defend Bush and his policies. It seems kinda unbalanced.
About a month ago I heard a talk by the head of the danish institute on human rights and equality, and he concluded at some point that the problem today was to get attention away from the "other faiths/cultures vs. my faith/culture" paradigm, and focus on the "fundamentalist vs. slackers" paradigm. I agree with that view point. |
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| Subey |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
I heard a talk by the head of the danish institute on human rights and equality, and he concluded at some point that the problem today was to get attention away from the "other faiths/cultures vs. my faith/culture" paradigm, and focus on the "fundamentalist vs. slackers" paradigm. I agree with that view point. |
Exactly. Islamic terrorism isn't about Muslims attacking the West, its about providing a catalyst for Muslims to attack themselves (i.e. Moderate vs Fundamentalists). It just hasn't reached critical mass yet.
Since you mention the danes i'd be remiss if I didn't mention that my favourite novel was written by Cees Nooteboom (The Following Story):p |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
Since you mention the danes i'd be remiss if I didn't mention that my favourite novel was written by Cees Nootboom :p |
Oh man, I've got no clue as to who you're talking about? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
What I don't understand is why "all the law abiding muslims" aren't more vocal about their position regarding extremism. |
Many of them are. It's rarely covered in the media though. But most of them are ALSO aware of Western prejudice against Muslims and how they're constantly portrayed as subhuman savages in all sorts of mediums (press/entertainment etc). Just look at what "your democraticaly elected" leaders have been doing to the Middle East for decades (the current war, cases of torture, sexual asube, arrests without any proof and then people being released without charge after being tortured the out of). But I don't really thing there is any point in trying to explain it to you since you're likely to disregard what I or anyone else will tell you as BS or an "unsubtantiabted claim" (since that basically how you've responded to this information when I brought it up earlier). Most Westerners are bascially obvlivious to the horrible their Goverments have been doing to "those" countries/people for decades (and the press and Goverments choose to keep the people in the dark about it). And ofcrouse you're gonna say something like, that's not true/is an exagerration or we have a free press or whatever.
Why don't you tell me something instead, why is it, that when I start a thread about torture, unreasonable arrest plus torture, war crimes, or anything regarding the plight of Muslims and Arabs, virtually no one responds? Is it becuase people agree with it on or support it? No, it's cuz they don't know what to say.
2 facts you're going to have to face if you want to understand the answer your question:
1. There is an anti-Muslim/Arab bias in the press.
2. Muslims/Arab nations have been opressed (many times very violently) by the main Western powers for decades now for their own greedy self-interests.
EDIT: I'm sick of saying the same thing over and over agian without anyone paying attention to it or simply saying/thinking that it's BS. |
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| severnayaprods |
Last week, 3 cars were burned in a range of 100 meters from home.
According to CNN and Fox News, France need the help of the army... :rolleyes: :stongue: :toothless
rofl, i must admit i'm fed up with these youngs who set up everything on fire, but i'm still alive and i don't want any ing humvee in my street!!!
things are calming down, let's see what will happen in the next days |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Many of them are. It's rarely covered in the media though. But most of them are ALSO aware of Western prejudice against Muslims and how they're constantly portrayed as subhuman savages in all sorts of mediums (press/entertainment etc). Just look at what "your democraticaly elected" leaders have been doing to the Middle East for decades (the current war, cases of torture, sexual asube, arrests without any proof and then people being released without charge after being tortured the out of). But I don't really thing there is any point in trying to explain it to you since you're likely to disregard what I or anyone else will tell you as BS or an "unsubtantiabted claim" (since that basically how you've responded to this information when I brought it up earlier). Most Westerners are bascially obvlivious to the horrible their Goverments have been doing to "those" countries/people for decades (and the press and Goverments choose to keep the people in the dark about it). And ofcrouse you're gonna say something like, that's not true/is an exagerration or we have a free press or whatever.
Why don't you tell me something instead, why is it, that when I start a thread about torture, unreasonable arrest plus torture, war crimes, or anything regarding the plight of Muslims and Arabs, virtually no one responds? Is it becuase people agree with it on or support it? No, it's cuz they don't know what to say.
2 facts you're going to have to face if you want to understand the answer your question:
1. There is an anti-Muslim/Arab bias in the press.
2. Muslims/Arab nations have been opressed (many times very violently) by the main Western powers for decades now for their own greedy self-interests.
EDIT: I'm sick of saying the same thing over and over agian without anyone paying attention to it or simply saying/thinking that it's BS. |
Actually I don't really agree with you here. There might be a lot of bad stuff about Muslims in the media, but that's because there are a few Muslims who do horrible acts. The media has never cared to report the good things, so I don't see why this is any different than any other event. For example, you often hear that *all Muslims aren't like that* in the media, but I never heard that *all americans aren't like that* when we read about all the stupid things your government does, this despite the large anti-American movement that actually exists. To me the "anti muslim" bias in the media is simply the wrong of how media works, not anything particular against Muslims.
That said I don't think it is good in any way at all, but it's just the way it is. And to fight this Muslims must speak up much lauder against this, show that they are too normal peaceful ppl who don't support this kinds of things at all. A much larger lobby group that knows how to work westerners is needed for sure.
As for why few replies to your threads about torture, first of all, people do reply. Second of all, at least not from my side, there is not a whole lot to argue with. Sometimes I would just reply with some boring one liner about how terrible it is, sometimes I would just subscribe to the thread to see whats being said in it if anything. Of course there are probably a few who don't respond for the reasons you outlined, BUT those are in a minority, at least in this forum. |
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| trancaholic |
| ^^^ +1 on all three parts. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by severnayaprods
Last week, 3 cars were burned in a range of 100 meters from home.
According to CNN and Fox News, France need the help of the army... :rolleyes: :stongue: :toothless
rofl, i must admit i'm fed up with these youngs who set up everything on fire, but i'm still alive and i don't want any ing humvee in my street!!!
things are calming down, let's see what will happen in the next days |
Well, I'd certainly prefer having a humvee patroling around than having my car burned. Besides, tanks and humvees look cool. |
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| wizniz |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Yea I'm wondering that too. I pretty much heard the same arguments from kids they interviewed on NPR. The only difference is that the kids NPR interviewed were much more articulate and rational. |
corn fed intelligence |
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| EvilTree |
Keep in mind that a lot of these rioters are just punks. They see stuff burning, so they get in the act.
To me, a lot of these guys are expecting a free ride through life and just pissed that they aren't getting it. Rebellious youths. Need a swift kick in the head.
Yeah, life sucks. Some people are not going to give you a fair chance. Live with it. Try a bit harder. You might go somewhere. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by wizniz
corn fed intelligence |
:conf: |
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