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Is the NDP in bed with the seperatists??? (pg. 2)
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Even if conservatives get a minority, one yank from Bloc means another no confidence motion. (Joe Clark scenario anyone?) |
I feel the same, this country might be in for a long series of minority govt until a strong politician decides to fix up this federation by starting talks about renewing the constitution.
And its not just for Quebec, but for other provinces. The federal has to focus on the matters that the constitution grants him and get the hell out of provinces fields of actions.
And this is very clear with the huge surpluses the federal is having while every province (except Oily Alberta) are strapped for cash and can't spend on what is needed most in their respective province. The federal is taking more than delivers in services. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
so after reading your posts you have 3 national parties that don't even bother with Quebec and you still want people in Quebec to vote for them?
from which planet are you guys coming from? this makes no sense.
you guys don't understand the Bloc motives, while at first its a sovergneist party, its still a party most people in Quebec vote for and even by federalists and people who still want to stay in Canada (like most Quebeckers), the reason is simple like I wrote above, there's a total disconnect by national parties and Quebec.
National parties don't bother with Quebec and Quebecois won't bother voting for them. |
Don't kid yourself Malek, there are NO national parties in this country. The Conservatives represent the west, the Liberals represent Ontario and most of the East, the Bloc represents Quebec, and the NDP represents the spoiled urban intellectuals.
I completely understand why Quebecois support the Bloc. Honestly, if I lived in Quebec there is a strong chance I would as well.... they are the only party that Quebecois can be assured will put Quebecois interests first. It only makes sense to vote for them. That said, I do not believe that the majority of people who support the Bloc at the ballot box actually support seperation from Canada. This is likely why the Bloc has downplayed the seperatist agenda lately.... every time they bring it up they lose support.
I honestly believe that the rest of Canada makes too big of a deal about the Bloc.... sure they want to seperate but it isn't their decision to make..... it's the people of Quebec's. They do not support the Bloc in this and it seems they never will. As time passes the francophone population in Quebec is becoming less and less.... eventually the push for seperation will die because the francophones will no longer have the numbers to make it a possibility.... unless of course they drop the cultural elitism and reach out to the immigrant population for support. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
so after reading your posts you have 3 national parties that don't even bother with Quebec and you still want people in Quebec to vote for them? |
Actually, no. I didn't imply that at all. To sum up what I said:
1) Federalist/nationalist parties should not co-operate with separatists, ever.
2) If the people of Quebec desire federalist parties to co-operate with Quebec-only political parties then they should start a non-separatist party.
3) Federalist/nationalist voters should NOT support any party that co-operates with separatists. |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Don't kid yourself Malek, there are NO national parties in this country. The Conservatives represent the west, the Liberals represent Ontario and most of the East, the Bloc represents Quebec, and the NDP represents the spoiled urban intellectuals.
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The PC which was a national party was hijacked by the reform and the Liberals now only bother with Ontario because they know its their only access to the govt. NDP, well, forget them.
| quote: |
I completely understand why Quebecois support the Bloc. Honestly, if I lived in Quebec there is a strong chance I would as well.... they are the only party that Quebecois can be assured will put Quebecois interests first. It only makes sense to vote for them. That said, I do not believe that the majority of people who support the Bloc at the ballot box actually support seperation from Canada. This is likely why the Bloc has downplayed the seperatist agenda lately.... every time they bring it up they lose support.
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exactly, most Québecois don't want separation, we all know that, the Bloc knows it and other federal parties know it too. But that doesn't mean the other parties have to ignore the Bloc because after all they're elected by Canadians citizens too (unless Québecois are considered 2nd class... ).
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I honestly believe that the rest of Canada makes too big of a deal about the Bloc.... sure they want to seperate but it isn't their decision to make..... it's the people of Quebec's. They do not support the Bloc in this and it seems they never will. As time passes the francophone population in Quebec is becoming less and less.... eventually the push for seperation will die because the francophones will no longer have the numbers to make it a possibility.... unless of course they drop the cultural elitism and reach out to the immigrant population for support.
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Well Francophone population isn't declining, its growin slowly, while the rest of Canada is growing more, so yes the Province is shrinking relatively in Canada.
And finally, you'de be surprised that immigrants support more the separation than you might think or heard. Actually, the longer an immigrant is in Québec the more he understands why Québec wants to split.
Personnaly, I wanted to vote NO at the last referndum but I was 17. But if there's another referndum, I might not vote the same if the federation stays the same, and I know many of my immigrant friends who are in the same position as myself. |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
Actually, no. I didn't imply that at all. To sum up what I said:
1) Federalist/nationalist parties should not co-operate with separatists, ever.
2) If the people of Quebec desire federalist parties to co-operate with Quebec-only political parties then they should start a non-separatist party.
3) Federalist/nationalist voters should NOT support any party that co-operates with separatists. |
1) I think you're wrong, because it only alienates even more the citizens who voted to be represented in Ottawa.
2) Well the Liberals and PC have/had strong wings in Quebec, but they failed miserably because they don't answer to Québecs demands.
3) Thats not the case, federalists in Québec do vote for the Bloc... yes thats more real than your wishes. |
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| MarkT |
Malek, that's my point...
people can point fingers at the so-called biased media...but maybe they should point some fingers at the other federal parties who are unable, despite the scandals, to appeal to Quebec voters.
In recent years, it's been the Liberals or the Bloq...now, thanks to the scandal, it's just the Bloq...why can't (or won't) any other party appeal to Quebec voters??? People can blame the "biased media" all they want...fact remains that the Bloq will rule Quebec for the forseable future and ALL federal parties should share the blame for that, not just the "corrupt Liberals". |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
Malek, that's my point...
people can point fingers at the so-called biased media...but maybe they should point some fingers at the other federal parties who are unable, despite the scandals, to appeal to Quebec voters.
In recent years, it's been the Liberals or the Bloq...now, thanks to the scandal, it's just the Bloq...why can't (or won't) any other party appeal to Quebec voters??? People can blame the "biased media" all they want...fact remains that the Bloq will rule Quebec for the forseable future and ALL federal parties should share the blame for that, not just the "corrupt Liberals". |
ok we agree, but I never specifically blamed the Liberals, every party has its shares of blame like you just posted.
But at this point in time, I believe that the Liberals got to go for the good of their party and the good of this country. Just by seeing the last mini budget, its scandaleous that they're trying everything to get reelected, even by bribing us with our own money. |
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| ShadoWolf |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
Call nationalism petty if you wish.
Canadians who care about keeping Canada whole will NOT vote for a party that collaborates with separatists nor a gov't that is propped up by separatists.
Whether separatists share the viewpoints of conservatives on many issues is irrelevant. The Bloc and PQ's founding objective is to separate Quebec from Canada (the Bloc sets the environment federally to make it possible, the PQ executes it provincially).
Here's an idea: if Quebec wants representation in Ottawa - form a Quebec party with no separatists intentions. I don't think any nationalist would have a problem supporting such a party. |
The Lieberal Party created the separatist movement.
-the Quiet Revolution happened under the Lieberals
-Rene Leveque came out of the Lieberal Party
-the Flag Flap and de-Britishization of Canada happened under the Lieberals
-the FLQ / October Crisis (with the UNPRECEDENTED calling of martial law) happened under the Trudeau Lieberals
-the Lieberals forced bilingualism on English-speaking provinces
-the PQ separatist government came to power in 1976 with the Trudeau Lieberals in Ottawa
-the anglophone diaspora happened with the Lieberals in power
-the 1980 Quebec referendum happened with the Trudeau Lieberals in Ottawa
-the divisive 1982 "constitution" was put into place with the Trudeau Lieberals in Ottawa (which Quebec HAS STILL NOT SIGNED)
-the Western Canada Concept and other western separatists came to prominance with the Trudeau Lieberals in Ottawa
-the 1995 Quebec referendum happened with the Chretien Lieberals in Ottawa
-AdScam, which is currently fueling anger in Quebec, happened under the Lieberals
-Martin appointed BQ co-founder Lapierre as a minister of the crown
-Martin appointed avowed separatist Jean as Governor-General
| quote: | Liberals give separatists kiss of life again
CHANTAL HÉBERT
Apr. 15, 2005. 01:00 AM
If the Liberal Party of Canada did not exist, the Quebec sovereignty movement might have to invent it.
With the sponsorship scandal, the federal Liberals have given the cause of Quebec sovereignty the breath of life for the third time in little more than two decades.
It first happened under Pierre Trudeau, when the Constitution was patriated against the will of the Quebec National Assembly.
Then Trudeau and Jean Chrétien led the fight against the Meech Lake Accord.
Before the accord foundered, support for sovereignty sat at its lowest level in years. If Meech had passed, few sovereignists could imagine a scenario that would allow for a referendum rematch.
The failure of the accord also gave birth to the Bloc Québécois. For the federal Liberals who had lost francophone Quebec decisively after patriation, that actually came with a silver lining.
The advent of the Bloc made it next to impossible for a national alternative to the Liberals to grow strong roots in Quebec. That, in turn, makes it difficult for a party other than the Liberals to secure a majority government nationally.
But at least the patriation and the Meech battles were fought on the field of ideas. By allowing the sponsorship scandal to unfold on its watch, the Liberal party has outdone itself for no greater cause, it appears, than its own interest or that of some of its associates.
In the days before the scandal broke, sovereignty had many of the features of a spent force.
The Parti Québécois had just registered its lowest score in decades in a provincial election and the Bloc feared its turn was soon to come in the upcoming federal campaign.
Instead, it rode the scandal backlash to its best showing since the pre-referendum era.
The revelations that have since come to light at the Gomery commission ensure that whenever the next election takes place, the Bloc will improve on that high score.
The Liberals have joined the Conservatives and the NDP as non-contenders in francophone Quebec. Such is their predicament that they have fallen to third place, far behind the BQ.
In the next campaign, Stephen Harper and Jack Layton will actually find it easier to draft candidates in Quebec than Martin.
Very few people want to run for a party that is routinely equated with corruption around the water coolers.
Against this backdrop, the Prime Minister is arguing that Harper will be gambling with national unity for his own partisan interest if he defeats Martin's minority government over the sponsorship scandal.
But the Bloc is set to dominate Quebec for at least one and maybe two more election cycles.
Martin's core argument really is that if voters outside Quebec ever chose to replace the Liberals with the Conservatives, that party's agenda would push Quebecers to bolt from the federation.
But if Quebecers' attachment to Canada was so fragile, they would surely have left in the face of the Liberal constitutional moves of the past decades.
Indeed, compared to Meech or patriation, the sponsorship scandal does not seriously register on the Richter scale of unity earthquakes.
In 1990, Quebecers were so angry over the demise of Meech that they massively wanted to turn their backs on Canada. They clamoured for a referendum.
In the case of the sponsorship scandal, it is the Liberal party that they are turning their backs on in disgust. But that feeling has, so far, not translated into an outburst of referendum fever.
From Quebec's perspective, if the next federal election is to be a litmus test of anything Canadian, it may be of the capacity of the rest of the country to hold its nose and reward Liberal efforts to smother the political stench of the sponsorship affair with the flag. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
Personnaly, I wanted to vote NO at the last referndum but I was 17. But if there's another referndum, I might not vote the same if the federation stays the same, and I know many of my immigrant friends who are in the same position as myself. |
I'm asking this because I am honestly curious - this whole youth separatist thing baffles me:
How is life ~so~ different for you being in Quebec (compared to everyone else in Canada), that you feel strongly enough to vote to completely withdraw, separate, from Canada?
How can the current federation be ~so~ unacceptable to you as Quebecer (compared to everyone else in Canada), that you feel strongly enough to vote to completely withdraw, separate, from Canada? |
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| MarkT |
^^^ I'd ask the same thing.
There are disgruntled Canadians across the country...Westerners who feel alienated...Atlantic residents who feel abandoned...but their is less talk of separation than a desire for inclusion, fairness, etc. (yes, I know that SOME will point to growing separatist movements elsewhere, but they will accomplish nothing, I'm sure).
Obviously the language issue is a factor...that Canada promotes it's French language and culture anywhere near as much as it does it's English culture is a farce...but so what? Plenty of other nations have more than one language, with one being "dominant".
I agree with the thought that much of the Bloq support has less to do with a desire for separation and more with promotion of Quebecer's interests...but why that must be linked to a separatist agenda is beyond me. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
^^^ I'd ask the same thing.
There are disgruntled Canadians across the country...Westerners who feel alienated...Atlantic residents who feel abandoned...but their is less talk of separation than a desire for inclusion, fairness, etc. (yes, I know that SOME will point to growing separatist movements elsewhere, but they will accomplish nothing, I'm sure).
Obviously the language issue is a factor...that Canada promotes it's French language and culture anywhere near as much as it does it's English culture is a farce...but so what? Plenty of other nations have more than one language, with one being "dominant".
I agree with the thought that much of the Bloq support has less to do with a desire for separation and more with promotion of Quebecer's interests...but why that must be linked to a separatist agenda is beyond me. |
I think the root is perhaps going back very far, ever since Wolfe beat the crap out of Montcalm making English dominant over French. Ever since then, as a French Canadian if you wanted to be someone in anglophone world, you'd have to speak english.
In early 1800s, English merchants dominated commerce in Lower Canada (then Quebec), relegating French Canadians to work as servants of anglophones, or be farmers, fishermen. T
hen came the Confederation and things slowly improved, but outcame WW1 where the nation was split between English and French Canadians once again, the main beef being English Canadians wanted to go fight for Britain, but the French Canadians didn't, because French Canadians didn't feel connection to France anymore. (thus why conscription crisis was huge)
After WW2, growing nationalist movement wanted to give Quebec a bigger voice and to this day, a lot of Quebecois feel that the federal govt does not listen to them anymore.
It's a continuous gradual resentment over English Canadian domination of Canada and Quebec's minority. I can somewhat understand that they feel they are being screwed over, historically at least. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
3) Federalist/nationalist voters should NOT support any party that co-operates with separatists. |
The trouble is, even though the Conservatives and NDP may be "cooperating" with the separatists, the Liberals were responsible for the separatist movement and have given in to almost every demand they've made, which makes them every bit as cooperative as the other parties.
For 20 years the separatist movement has really just been a threat of force exerted on the federal party and masked as a legitimate cause. When Conservatives were in power, they did not support the separatists; they may be working together now to bring down the Liberals, but that does not mean that if given power again they'd help the separatists any more than the Liberals already have.
Unless you're talking about voting for some other party... I'd love to see the Freedom party in power but it just isn't going to happen. |
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