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European's find evidence of secret prisions (pg. 2)
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| josh4 |
| Yeesh! Down boy! Down! occrider heel! Down! *whip* *whip* |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
I don't see any religious extremists from this country flying planes in to buildings full of innocent people in Baghdad... |
So, how many Iraqies flew planes into buildings on 9/11? |
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| Moongoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
Are we morally superior to our enemies? I think we are not perfect, but I think that we are superior in our beliefs and our sense of inherent rights to religious and social freedoms. So from that stand-point, I think that when it comes to employing torture tactics, we're still on the moral high-ground when all is said and done. I don't know about you, but I want to win this war on Terror, as bad as the Terrorists want to wipe us off the face of the earth. It's a war of anihilation, this one...the Terrorsist are not willing to comprimise.;) |
Tell me does your mind work like this?
Becouse that is the only way i can figure out how one would support torture and still be convinced that he has the moral high ground. I mean , there are some things you just dont do, especialy if you consider yourself to be a civilised nation, and torture cant be considered just a few points off when coparing yourself to anyone. Its more like game over, you have lost all your points, please try to do better nest time.
And if you keep this up, you may find that it isnt just the terrorist anymore that want you off the face of the earth. Torturing people does not get you any friends.
EDIT: I just thought of something
A while ago there was a story here that was preety big, it was about 3 highschoolers. Now these three were probably what every parent would want thir child to be. They were good sportsmen, top in every class, popular, hard working and their parents were wery well off too(i dont know many people that got a 40k € car for their 18th birthday). Like i said, everybody thought they were perfect.
That is until one day they were stopped by a random traffic check and an officer found a dead cat in their trunk which was apparently tortured to death. Doesnt seem like much? Well as it were, it was found out that these boys have been at it for quite some time, torturing nearly 50 cats and numerous other animals to death.
Are they bad people? I mean on every other point, these boys were as close to perfect as one has come, they only have one slight problem. They like torturing animals to death. Are they still better than me becouse i dont do sports anymore, becouse im not that good of a student or becouse im not as well off as they are, or does their little hobby move them from high society to scum of society? |
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| Zombie0915 |
yikes, can't beleive somebody is actually in here trying to justify torture. Being rich or smart or popular doesn't justify torture, neither do extra freedoms. I wonder how this stuff that our gov't does affects how we are treated when we travel to other countries, I don't think I can pass myself off as canadian unfortunately, my speaking sounds too obvious.
Who would you have us vote for, how can we get them to win when such a huge chunk of the population is in hysteria and willing to do anything to fight off the terror. I hope McCain runs in 2008 against Hillary and kicks her ass, that would be sweet. I just hate that such a huge population of the civilized world has such hostile feelings towards us, I really like most of you kids who live abroad.
I think curruption in business is the root cause of most of todays problems in the USA, corporations have more of an influence in the gov't these days than the voters do, the real democracy happens in your wallet, which businesses one chooses to support. We need to stop giving power to greedy bastards hell bent on exploiting all that they can exploit in order to have their way. If only more honest and benevolent people could get rich, that would balance things out, the current system is desinged to protect existing rich people at the expense of allowing new people to elevate themselves to that status. We need strategic boytcotts, alternatives to the dinosaur indutrial lords who buy laws from the representatives, and we need representatives who cannot be bought. Business interests have really taken over everything in this country, everything and everyone seems to be negotiable, I feel like alot of people these days are selling their souls, tossing their values aside in order to get more money, it is really sad.
I am not trying to place all the blame on the US, I realize there is also a whole load of ppl who wish nothing more to destroy us and not because of our recent selling out of ourselves but because of stuff in history that we cannot go back and fix. I dont think we should be torturing them because of that though, we should definately defend ourselves. But there is no opposing army to fight, these people are decentralized, bound together only by ideology, their attacks are not battles but rather one-off bombings, more like statements and less like wars. A war will only make their statements bolder and more frequent. Hopefully the Iraq gov't will stabalize, then maybe the people can rid themselves of violent Islam, but this torture stuff is only going to make that less likely to happen. |
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| donnybrasco |
LOL...man, I love controversy. :stongue:
OK, where to start?
Look, I'm only telling the truth as I believe it to be in terms of what really goes on in all wars on both sides. When you're down there in the middle of the fighting, up close and personal, you're not going to be an arm-chair warrior, like many of you are here, talking in "theory" about torture and how awful it is...no, you're going to be concerned with getting you and your friends out of their alive! And if it means employing torture to get intel, then you're going to do it! Do you really think you or any soldier out there is willing to die for a social barrier? This happens in all wars. WW2 would be a perfect example. And would anyone argue that in the end, the U.S. and it's Allies were NOT on the higher moral ground? At least when it's over, you get to live your life as you see fit in this country with some sense of freedom and a legal system that backs it up...life under Hitler or Mussolni wouldn't have been nearly the same....so I say; We're on the higher moral ground for that reason. We're not repressing women, or forcing one religion on anyone, or blowing up ancient ruins because they offend Ala, etc...
As far as Iraq goes, the Terrorists are blowing up civilians over there every day. I'd say the war on Terrorism is quite obvious at this point, so there's your link as far as that area goes. Are we better than the Iraqi's and know what's right for them? I doubt it. But Saddam had to go for a lot of reasons, and I feel no pitty there, nor does most of the world. In the long run, I still believe Iraq will be better off without him in power, no matter how trying times currently are.
And BTW Moongoose; The cats are obviously completely innocent...where-as the prisoners we're talking about most likely are not...so these boys were totally wrong...apples and oranges. ;) |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
LOL...man, I love controversy. :stongue:
OK, where to start?
Look, I'm only telling the truth as I believe it to be in terms of what really goes on in all wars on both sides. |
So, basically you're saying that you support state terrorism so long as it's aimed at those who our current administration deems a threat, despite the fact that they haven't even been proven guilty in a court of law. Is that correct?
| quote: | Asymmetric warfare and terrorism
Asymmetric warfare is not synonymous with terrorism. Rather, terrorism is sometimes used as a tactic by the weaker side in an asymmetric conflict. Terrorism is sometimes called asymmetric warfare by advocates for partisans using terrorist methods to avoid the pejorative connotations of the word; likewise, occupying powers often label partisans "terrorists" as part of propaganda campaigns to maintain support in the occupying power's home country, and to win over the occupied people so as to cut off the partisans' principal support base. This is the root of the phrase "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymme...e_and_terrorism |
Maybe you're right, though. Maybe we all should just give in and support our government's illegal and immoral ways. After all, it's worked for us up until this point. Really though, as most people don't even realize that's exactly how we kept South America from falling under the influence of those damn Commie bastards back in the 1970's! :eek: |
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| Trancer-X |
| I also forgot to mention that whether you realize it or not (presumably not), our actions often come back to haunt us. |
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| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
LOL@people who think wars are EVER fought fairly or "nicely".
The Terrorists are in it to win...and in case you haven't noticed, they'll do ANYTHING to get there.
I don't think a little simple questioning would or will EVER get a Terrorist to talk.........but I'll bet some good old fashioned torturing would do the trick...it's worked throughout history. ;) |
plus unoooooo. |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
plus unoooooo. |
| quote: | | Great minds think alike. Fools seldom differ. |
I'm thinking the latter at this point. |
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| Moongoose |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trancer-X
I'm thinking the latter at this point. |
plus unoooooo. |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trancer-X
[color=#33ccff]So, basically you're saying that you support state terrorism... |
I said some OTHERS may see it as Terrorism, I personally don't. Do you think the Terrorists call what they're doing "Terrorism"? They're calling it "The will of Ala", so I suppose it's all relative. ;)
Our government tried the higher-than-thou road when Clinton was President. He banned the CIA from using known killers, terrorists and criminals as informants, all on the principal that it cheapens us. Well, by all accounts, that is a BIG part of what lead to us being so blind about 9-11!
You can't play the game like a and expect to win is all I'm saying. There is no "higher road" in war...it's ugly, nasty business...and you're playing to win! |
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| Moongoose |
| You play everygame to win, and in every game there are rules to follow, even in war. |
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