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City council attack on Toronto nightlife continues. (pg. 2)
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| dj_souvlaki |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
i say we do that, but with hip hop artists. LOL |
thats what i was implying. |
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| tonybologna |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Oh and a notable characteristic of the REAL ghettos i mentioned are the fact that there are NO Businesses whatsoever. Just abandoned buildings. So yes, lets keep chasing business away from these "bad" areas because that will solve everything! |
Jane and Finch is a daycare center compared to Washington DC. Try walking ten blocks north of the Capitol building where I used to live. Here you will see:
1. Abandoned and burned down houses everywhere. Venture inside and you may find someone smoking the occasional crackrocks. You may also find, like I did one time, dozens of 5 gallon buckets of inside-being used by local homeless people as an outhouse. You will also hear the scurry of dozens of poodle size rats as you enter.
2. Iron bar doors on everything- including business. You want a 40 oz bottle- you gotta order it through bullet proof glass. You want to grab a pizza pie- you have to ring the door bell first and then order through bullet proof glass as you see yourself on 4 different television cameras. You want to buy a house- well it has iron bars on the windows and doors. Check behind the house before you buy it- I found a stolen Metro bus in the alleyway behind it and reported it to the Metro authority!
3. Pizza and 40 ozs are about all you'll get. All other businesses that maybe were open 35 years ago are now barracaded with cinder blocks or plywood. No restaurants, no clubs, no bars, nothing. There is the occasional wheel rim shop which has wheels hanging up on chicken wire fences which are guarded by Doverman Pinchers.
4. When you see the high school, you will notice that there are vehicles on cinderblocks in the school parking lot. Some have had the seats removed. There is also a lot of broken glass on the basketball court. If you try to run on the school track after it rains, the track lifts up off the ground because water got under the synthetic rubber and it feels like running on a water bed.
5. Try to go to the park. First, the swing sets are gone. Second, bums are sleeping on the slide. Third, there are at least 4 dozen people with shopping carts sitting around on the benches waiting for the next crack dealer to show up. You know when the dealers show up because they drive police cars which they bought at the auction- usually the early 90s boxy Chevy Caprices which still have the big side mirrors that cops used to use. If you look at the license plate, you will notice, it is either a temporary plate that has expired or they made their own license plate by writing some numbers and letters down on a piece of cardboard with black magic marker.
5. Finally, if you decide to walk down the street at night, you will notice that there is little if any lighting. As a result, you may trip over that random tire that was changed on the curb side or dead battery that was thrown out.
I'm not sure what the solution is to Toronto's problem of violence. A study must be done to determine the background of each victim and perpetrator. Are they natives of Canada? Did they immigrate here? Is it possible that violence is being imported into Canada because of its immigration policy? If not, where is the system failing children and young adults, enabling the culture of violence to breed domestically? Is it the parents' faults? Are there areas of Toronto experiencing flight of more affluent classes (such as white flightin the U.S. during the 1960s on) leaving concentrated areas of poverty to feed on each other? |
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| Jayx1 |
We are definately headed in the direction you just described. Most US inner cities were just as vibrant and bustling as toronto is today. And that was only 30-40 years ago. Things can deteriorate quikly and unless we come up with real solutions we are doomed. This is why idiots like mamolitti and miller need to be thrown out and replaced with politicians who understand the real crisis we are in instead of paying lip service to political correctness and half baked solutions like refusing a woman a business licence based on ignorance.
It could have been worse though. We could have had tom jakobek as mayor. Thank god he was dumb enough to go down in a sea of corruption before he could even run because i suspect torontonians would have been dumb enough to vote for him. After all, we did get miller. |
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| 7-4-7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
whoa slow down with that exaggeration for a moment. Do you honestly think that north york and etobicoke are the worst parts of north america? Nowhere, and i repeat NOWHERE in Toronto comes close to being as bad as most inner cities in the US. Take a walk through Detroit, Washington DC or parts of the bronx and then come back to jane and finch or regent park and tell me that those places come close to being the dispicable hell holes that the US cities are. And lets not even talk about Mexico or Haiti or other countries in North America.
Ive been to the places i just mentioned. (except haiti) Trust me, Toronto is still sitting pretty as far as ghettos are concerned.
Oh and a notable characteristic of the REAL ghettos i mentioned are the fact that there are NO Businesses whatsoever. Just abandoned buildings. So yes, lets keep chasing business away from these "bad" areas because that will solve everything! |
For too long a thought process as that one is has perpetuated the violence, the idea that Toronto is not as bad as other places has put us where exactly? so now we are better than Chicago, New York and L.A but worse than Pefferlaw Ontario. Seriously how ridiculous does that sound exactly. The violence in a city is relative to the progression of the violence itself. In the case of Toronto, I have lived here almost my entire life, and I have been NOT been in Asia and South America but in all other densly population continents. I know what violence is. I have seen gang violence, mafia violence, and have been privy to horrible violence first hand. Toronto is progressing or digressing, depending how you look at it, because of the rate with which violence is occuring. Argue that and you are essentially only perpetuating the violence.
As for using business as a means to change, bars and clubs are not the answer I dont care what logic you can distort, Jane and Finch is an awfully violent place, and that is exactly the opposite of the type business that area needs. The concentration of violence is unavoidable. Having worked as a security gaurd in my youth in a Jane and Finch location I know that the type of violence that exists in this area far exceeds anywhere else in this city that you seem to think is still so virgin. Toronto has tamil violence, asian gang violence, mafia violence, street related crime, and all the other petty criminal activity. Many cities within the world cannot claim to have a considerable amount of differentiation in the types of crime, like toronto has.
Nevermind an unbalance import of American guns. This sounds like a recipe that only the worst cities of teh world can call their own.
Alochol and Drugs.
I have lived in Italy, a place where alcohol is essentially a part of all aspects of mainstream culture, I would NEVER advocate that we should EVER ban the use of alcohol. But to introduce one more location serving alcohol in that specific area is just plain foolish. In areas of the city that experiance far less violent crime, why is it that you rarely/never see clubs, bars and other places of "shady" activity? Because the community demands it, they wish to preserve the purity of their area, in doing so they need to control the those unavoidable aspects of society that lend to an increase violence, ie: drugs and alcohol. In areas of low income housing we see business expoliting the "reality" of these local inhabitants. In Scarbourough you see: shady bars, shady clubs, pay day advance locations, fast food "restaurants" and high schools. A great combo.
My question is why does the city disrespect these people in allowing this perpetuation of their lifestyle?
The city needs to take control of its worst areas before it can hope to acheive sucesses in the control of the widespread violence. |
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| Jayx1 |
im not saying that toronto is violence free. But you stated that its one of the worst areas in north america and i demonstrated that this was not the case.
As for my attitude. I think my atittude is quite healthy. Too many people are doing nothing about the situation. I happen to realize that while we are not as bad as the US yet, we are headed that way. That means that although the worst hasnt happened i can see that steps need to be taken to head off the worst. Most people in toronto cant see this.
As for the restaurant. Again if we try and shut down every legit business then whats left? Let her open the bar. If she breaks the law, shut her down. There are no grounds for not allowing her to open up the establishment other than that the previous owners were shady characters. And that has absolutely nothing to do with this lady who seems to have her head on her shoulders and i would assume has no criminal background.
Lets deal with the criminals and stop picking on the innocent. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by 7-4-7
In areas of low income housing we see business expoliting the "reality" of these local inhabitants. In Scarbourough you see: shady bars, shady clubs, pay day advance locations, fast food "restaurants" and high schools. A great combo.
My question is why does the city disrespect these people in allowing this perpetuation of their lifestyle?
The city needs to take control of its worst areas before it can hope to acheive sucesses in the control of the widespread violence. |
My question is more like why does the city allow disrespect when it comes to business owners? Do you know the BS involved in trying to open even a simple chain outlet? The city almost doesnt want business in their city with all the red tape and crap you have to go through. Id hate to have to apply for a liquor licence on top of that!
So you are advocating that we have dry areas in the city like in the 1920s? Are you advocating that only high end business be allowed to locate in scarborough or jane/finch? Perhaps we should open up a harry rosen there?
Those pay day places and crappy pool halls are not the cause of violence and poverty, they are the result of them. Closing them down will only add to the despair of an area. Why not find steps to enrichen the people of the area who will then refuse to shop at these locations?
You attitude seems to smack of elitism. |
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| crazedcanuck |
I say we do a lock in @ the rec centre!!!
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| 7-4-7 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Let her open the bar. If she breaks the law, shut her down. |
isn't this exactly the nonchalant attitude that has gotten us in this terrible mess in the first place? The last thing this city needs is one more place of low social contribution, as a bar is, in a place that needs no more distributors of proven instigators of irrational activity. But I am actually ultimatly concerned with something that in almost unprovable in a court of law...you say open it and shut it down if she is proven illegitimate, i only seriously wonder how you can prove that her establishment is only adding to the violence, and aggrivation, perpetuation of the violence and poverty of the area. This is something I think we would agree is unquantifiable.
There is a certain irony to the fact that you charge me with being elitist, considering I drive through more of Toronto's ghettos than most would feel comfortabel with everyday. I see violence, I see dealing and I see homelessness in Scarborough all the time. I cringe when I see that places like Rumours are still opened, or that the only bunsiness that appear to be making any money are places like caddy's, rumours and cashmoney. I wonder how someone who is advocating for a greater distribution of retail establsihments of high social contribution in a area trated like the "fringes" could be charged as being elitest? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj_souvlaki
i say we open up a club and invite the two biggest rival gangs in it.
duck for cover and the rest will speak for itself. |
Dude, I guarentee if you did that it would end up being the most successful hip hop spot in history! Think of the street cred! Going there would be the right of passage for every "gangsta" in North America. |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
I say nightlife because i refuse to call this place a club. It was a ty banquet hall and it now sounds like this new owner is trying to make a legit business. But Councillor mamolitti needs to be thrown out in this year's municipal election. Ive had enough of that idiot.
Ok just a recap on the one quote.
I agree. Thats why we must shut down all places where murders and shootingshappened in the last year.
This includes
- malls
- churches
- parks
- donut shops
- residences
- pool halls
- dundas square
- yonge st
and any space in front of a foot locker
Yes mamolitti, you are really on to something here. This idea will make us all a lot safer.
Does anybody here live in this idiot's ward? If so id advise you to go vote against him in nov. |
uh.
what's with all this gang in Canada?
what's going on? |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by 7-4-7
isn't this exactly the nonchalant attitude that has gotten us in this terrible mess in the first place? The last thing this city needs is one more place of low social contribution, as a bar is, in a place that needs no more distributors of proven instigators of irrational activity. But I am actually ultimatly concerned with something that in almost unprovable in a court of law...you say open it and shut it down if she is proven illegitimate, i only seriously wonder how you can prove that her establishment is only adding to the violence, and aggrivation, perpetuation of the violence and poverty of the area. This is something I think we would agree is unquantifiable.
There is a certain irony to the fact that you charge me with being elitist, considering I drive through more of Toronto's ghettos than most would feel comfortabel with everyday. I see violence, I see dealing and I see homelessness in Scarborough all the time. I cringe when I see that places like Rumours are still opened, or that the only bunsiness that appear to be making any money are places like caddy's, rumours and cashmoney. I wonder how someone who is advocating for a greater distribution of retail establsihments of high social contribution in a area trated like the "fringes" could be charged as being elitest? |
do you know the kinds of investigations the LCBO does to one's background? If she has a liquor licence shes legitimate. You cant treat somebody as guilty before they have even comitted a crime. Also from what i read here she wants to open a restaurant that serves liquor.
Like i said, you are being elitest because you dont feel that certain areas should be allowed to have businesses. You automatically assume that trouble will happen. Just like media and politicians automatically assume that trouble happens at so called "respectable places". This is how the BS starts. First some small bar in etobicoke. Then they link it to the super clubs and the whole industry is done.
I call it the spin cat syndrome.
Address the crime problem itself and dont punish the innocent people along the way. Shut down a business and the shady people will take their shadiness down the street. It solves nothing. Lets take care of the people causing the problems instead. But of course, that would be the harder way to do things. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
Lets take care of the people causing the problems instead. But of course, that would be the harder way to do things. |
DING!
You've hit the nail on the head for this and all the other half measures that all levels of government employ to make it seem as though they are trying to solve a problem whilst in reality they are doing nothing. The gun registry comes to mind, workfare comes to mind, the preposed ban of hand guns, the preposed reverse onus bail, the list can go on and on and on as long as one's memory. Today's politics are all about facaudes.... one must appear to be doing something but one must avoid real action at all costs because failure is more damaging then the status quo (I believe this would best be catagorized as the Chretien Method). |
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