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[Harmonic Mixing] dominant or subdominant?
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| skoom |
I sorta get that harmonic mixing is more then just how well it sounds its also about flow.. so to dj's that understand harmonic mixing more then just the easy mix chart, what determines which key you pick next?
its all about the flow of a set.. so why would you choose a subdominant rather then a dominant, or visa versa?
i personally find it easier to use the cromatic scale rather then the easy mix chart and i worked out unless your keying ur tunes in different octaves aswell, then subdominant and dominant keys are the same, its just which order you mix the tracks...
If you pick a C and want to mix into the subdominant you would pick F
but if you go the other way around, your mixing into a dominant F > C
so if you play two tracks in one order compared to another they are doing different things, ones going up in energy ones going down? correct? (im still learning this stuff which is why im asking this)
basically what im trying to work out is which gives a lift in energy..
one and two semitones above the note your mixing gives a lift,
one and two semitones below decreases energy
but these sound quite bad if down wrong
it also seems that:
three and four semitones above also give a lift
three and four semitones below decrease
but these also sound bad
so im assuming:
five semitones above gives a lift (subdominant)
five semitones below decreases (dominant, as this is the same as 7 semitones above the tonic)
then we have,
six semitones above (which is exact same as six semitones below)
i assume that this would do the same thing as the tonic, keep energy level?
does anyone understand sorta what im trying to get at & find out?
some people might think im looking into it too much and making something alot more confusing then it should be..
but i think how it flows has a big part to do with it..
why do you like some sets and not others? why do u like some cd's n not others? it could be the tracks or the way its mixed...
why do people like the music a piano player plays? is it because of the individual notes they play? its because how each not moving from one to the other makes them feel.. sometimes it goes up sometimes it goes down but it all sounds good put together..
im sorta looking at it that way, each track is a individual key on a piano.. and in a set you can have about 10-12 tracks, so imagine you get on a piano and can only press 10 keys.. if u press them in some random order no one will like it, if u do something from a famous peice of music.. just a small part of it.. people will recognize it and like it..
neway im starting to dribble.. thats just my thoughts and im trying to work it all out, because with keying tracks unless u key in octaves (wayyy too much hassle) you cant really go 7 semitones above, your just going 5 semitones below.. |
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| est |
| quote: | Originally posted by skoom
I sorta get that harmonic mixing is more then just how well it sounds its also about flow.. so to dj's that understand harmonic mixing more then just the easy mix chart, what determines which key you pick next?
its all about the flow of a set.. so why would you choose a subdominant rather then a dominant, or visa versa? |
Both a domininant and a subdominant are a good match. Keys match well if the key signatures are similar: a dominant has one more sharp than the current key and the subdominant has one less, so they match equally well.
| quote: | | i personally find it easier to use the cromatic scale rather then the easy mix chart and i worked out unless your keying ur tunes in different octaves aswell, then subdominant and dominant keys are the same, its just which order you mix the tracks... |
It makes no difference what octave you key the tunes in. As far as keys are concerned, an A is an A.
| quote: | | If you pick a C# and want to mix into the subdominant you would pick F |
The subdominant for C# would be F#....
| quote: | | but if you go the other way around, your mixing into a dominant F > C# |
...and likewise the dominant of F would be C.
| quote: | | so if you play two tracks in one order compared to another they are doing different things, ones going up in energy ones going down? correct? (im still learning this stuff which is why im asking this) |
hmmm....i can see what you mean but there are other elements of a tune that determine energy that just key. Mixing from F-C with certain tunes might bring a rise in energy, with other tunes in the same key might bring a drop.
| quote: | basically what im trying to work out is which gives a lift in energy..
one and two semitones above the note your mixing gives a lift,
one and two semitones below decreases energy
but these sound quite bad if down wrong |
Mixing 1 or 2 semitones above would be a key clash as the keys are so close. However it can work amazingly well - I've heard some DJs cut to a key that is a semitone above and brings a real increase in energy, like going up a gear. Theoretically, this is a clash, but the reason it works is becuase theyre not usually in the mix for very long at all.
| quote: | it also seems that:
three and four semitones above also give a lift
three and four semitones below decrease
but these also sound bad |
3 or 4 semitones above or below is a clash.
| quote: | so im assuming:
five semitones above gives a lift (subdominant)
five semitones below decreases (dominant, as this is the same as 7 semitones above the tonic) |
You're right with the semitones, but just becuase you mix in to a subdominant doesn't necessarily mean it will bring a lift in energy. MIxing in to the dominant may well bring a rise in energy.
| quote: | then we have,
six semitones above (which is exact same as six semitones below)
i assume that this would do the same thing as the tonic, keep energy level? |
No - this would be a clash. This would be an interval of an augmented 5th and would clash painfully as it is so close to the dominant,which is a strong match.
| quote: | does anyone understand sorta what im trying to get at & find out?
some people might think im looking into it too much and making something alot more confusing then it should be..
but i think how it flows has a big part to do with it..
why do you like some sets and not others? why do u like some cd's n not others? it could be the tracks or the way its mixed...
why do people like the music a piano player plays? is it because of the individual notes they play? its because how each not moving from one to the other makes them feel.. sometimes it goes up sometimes it goes down but it all sounds good put together..
im sorta looking at it that way, each track is a individual key on a piano.. and in a set you can have about 10-12 tracks, so imagine you get on a piano and can only press 10 keys.. if u press them in some random order no one will like it, if u do something from a famous peice of music.. just a small part of it.. people will recognize it and like it..
neway im starting to dribble.. thats just my thoughts and im trying to work it all out, because with keying tracks unless u key in octaves (wayyy too much hassle) you cant really go 7 semitones above, your just going 5 semitones below.. |
Interesting thoughts, but I think the root of your misunderstanding is that you're thinking of keys as in octaves. As I said, to mix harmonically, you just need to choose keys that have the same, or nearly the same key signature (dominant, subdom, relative major/minor, or of course the same key). The easymix chart does this for you - if you have your tunes keyed then you can see quickly what keys will go well next.
I feel there may be more you misunderstand though, so feel free to keep asking! |
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| skoom |
| quote: | Originally posted by est
hmmm....i can see what you mean but there are other elements of a tune that determine energy that just key. Mixing from F-C with certain tunes might bring a rise in energy, with other tunes in the same key might bring a drop.
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what are those other elements? the only thing i can think of would be the octaves? i may be obsessing with it and refusing to understand that if a track is in a key its in the key.. but i think theres more to it then that? i understand that harmonic mixing is about how well keys go together.. and C does go good with F and G.. but id like to move away from the fact of key clases and how well it works harmonically and look at the energy in it.. C goes good with F and G on a piano (im assuming) and if you were playing them you'd do it on the one octave, and it would all sound as if it was going up.. but if you played F in the previous octave.. itd go from C, down to F then WAY up to G..
with the comments about 1, 2, 3 & 4 semitones above/below.. they do key clash.. but there also is a reaction..it may sound crap but it may also subconsiously to something, like loose all the energy or give a lot more..
| quote: | Originally posted by est
No - this would be a clash. This would be an interval of an augmented 5th and would clash painfully as it is so close to the dominant,which is a strong match.
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but isnt it also so close to the subdominant aswell?
C dominant is 7 semitones above,
C subdominant is 5 semitones above,
so inbetween that is 6...
i probly need to understand music some more but if that doesnt work out im so confused haha
iv been mixing some +6 semitones above they seem to work well
im looking at it as some notes dont have dominants... why? because keying tracks doesnt involve octaves.. you can get the dominant of B on a piano.. but when mixing tracks? how is it done? if your tracks were on a piano u'd have to go backwards wouldnt you? how do u get the dominant of B on the very far right of a piano? do u go back to the start? it'd just sound wrong |
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| skoom |
also.. i forgot to mention it
i did actually mean C instead of C# ahah.. i changed the original post..
when u said it was F# i looked at my list of keys n went no its not its F, then realised i typed C# in the post instead of C
oops haha |
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| skoom |
also, one more thing..
i realise that saying B has not dominant is weird.. ovcourse it has a dominant.. im talking solely in relation to flow and energy (which is what this post is pretty much entirely aimed at).. you cant go to a dominant key of B when you are at the end of the keyboard.. etc.. |
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| Omega_Blue |
i think about it in intervals. I know that major 2nds, major 3rds, perfect 4ths, and perfect 5ths will almost always sound good, so i'll usually mix like that.. . for example
if i'm playing a track in C, i would most likely mix in a tune in D (major 2nd) or F (perfect 4th).
the most dissonant sounding intervals are minor 2nds and tritones imo, so i would stay away from mixing C into C# or Gb... you get the idea.
of course these are just guidelines i use.. |
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| est |
| quote: | Originally posted by skoom
also, one more thing..
i realise that saying B has not dominant is weird.. ovcourse it has a dominant.. im talking solely in relation to flow and energy (which is what this post is pretty much entirely aimed at).. you cant go to a dominant key of B when you are at the end of the keyboard.. etc.. |
You are very confused indeed - this is just basic harmony and it's much less complicated than you are making it for yourself.
The dominant of B is F#; mixing to any tune in this key would be compatible.
| quote: | Originally posted by skoom
C goes good with F and G on a piano (im assuming) and if you were playing them you'd do it on the one octave, and it would all sound as if it was going up.. but if you played F in the previous octave.. itd go from C, down to F then WAY up to G.. |
OK - there is no such thing as keys in different octaves. A key can be named after any note between A and G on a keyboard, but it's not as if you get keys in different octaves, with higher up and lower down ones. You may get a tune in F that has a high pitched melody, and another that has a lower melody, but both tunes are still in exactly the same key: F.
Here is a diagram of a keyboard:
In case you don't already know, going from one key to the immediate next one on a keyboard (whether white or black note) is a semitone step.
You are right that you can count up 7 semitones on the keyboard from the key that you are in and you will find the dominant, which will be a good match (or 5 semitones will be the subdominant). If this is the way you want to think of keys then that's fine. Just key your records and mix tunes that are compatible, that's all. |
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| IntegraR0064 |
| quote: | Originally posted by skoom
what are those other elements? the only thing i can think of would be the octaves? |
Um...
There's a lot more to energy than the key of the tracks.
Think of it this way....if I mix from a hard house/hard dance track at 150 bpm to a gregorian chant track with no percussion or basslines or anything.....i think you can quite easily understand that no matter what key the gregorian chant track is in....it's gonna be a drop in energy.
Obviously it's not going to be this drastic, but just to show the point.
This is an interesting thread...I think you're overemphasizing the importance of key, but it's a good thread nonetheless. |
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| Pinokio |
quote:
Originally posted by Nemesis44
I mix the following ways...
-3
+4
+1
-1
+7
Is that in order of Jump in energy or the ones that sounds better.
quote:
Originally posted by Nemesis44
Some people get anal about what scale a track is in too but they you will just blow your mind and really limit your selection. Also if you are mixing at a point where that matters you are mixing parts with a lot of music in them and the chances of that sounding good are pretty slim.
This Got me confused
Let's Say I have a tune. and the Key is "E", now I don't know if it's sharp, minor , flat or major.
If I go to camelot Sound and let's say I want to mix a good sounding +3 tunes
I will see
12B (E Major) +3 = 3B (D-Flat Major)
5B (E-Flat Major) +3 = 8B (C-Major)
2A (E-Flat Minor) +3 = 5A (C-Minor)
9A (E minor) +3 = 12A (D-Flat Minor)
I noticed there are 2 Main Keys here (D) & (C).
No Let's Assume that the real Key of the tune is (E-Minor), All the results posted above will have a good sound?
I have four options here but If I choose 5A (C-Minor), that would actually be a +8, and I Haven't heard that +8 is a good sounding mix.
Can I mix from E-Minor into D-Flat Major, or into C-Major, or Viceversa from Major to minor? is this good or bad osunding, increasding or decreasing energy?
Thank You |
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| Pinokio |
ohh Another Question,
I know that the tunes change their key with the pitch change at about 3% I think, I'm not sure.
Let's assume I have a track at 135 BPM (A-Flat Minor)1A, and at 139 BPM it reaches +3%, that would make the tune be (E-Flat Minor) 2A?,
and at 131 BPM it reaches -3%, That would make the tune be (D-Flat Minor) 12A?
Also is the pitch % always the same or it chnages, let's say for example in some tunes when you add 3 BPM it will change pitch 3%, and in other tunes when you add 8 BPM it will change 3% pitch.
What's the Percent of the Pitch reffering to?
Also I noticed every change in pitch will modify the key of the track so IF I have a tune (A-Flat Minor) 1A at 2.50 %, it would be better to assume that tune is mor enear to be a 2A rather than a 1A?
Thanks Again. |
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| est |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pinokio
ohh Another Question,
I know that the tunes change their key with the pitch change at about 3% I think, I'm not sure.
Let's assume I have a track at 135 BPM (A-Flat Minor)1A, and at 139 BPM it reaches +3%, that would make the tune be (E-Flat Minor) 2A?, |
No, if would make it 1 semitone above, so Aminor.
| quote: | | and at 131 BPM it reaches -3%, That would make the tune be (D-Flat Minor) 12A? |
1 semitone below, so Gminor.
| quote: | Also is the pitch % always the same or it chnages, let's say for example in some tunes when you add 3 BPM it will change pitch 3%, and in other tunes when you add 8 BPM it will change 3% pitch.
What's the Percent of the Pitch reffering to? |
% of BPM.
| quote: | Also I noticed every change in pitch will modify the key of the track so IF I have a tune (A-Flat Minor) 1A at 2.50 %, it would be better to assume that tune is mor enear to be a 2A rather than a 1A?
Thanks Again. |
Probably. Have a play around. Key a tune at 0 pitch then again at 2.5 and hear the difference. |
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| est |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pinokio
This Got me confused
Let's Say I have a tune. and the Key is "E", now I don't know if it's sharp, minor , flat or major. |
You have to know this. E and Eb are completely different keys. Their key signatures are entirely different (4 sharps compared to 3 flats). The problem with mixing keys that are a semitone apart (or a semitone off the dominant or whatever) is the pull of the semitone. Eb is so close to the key match of E that your ear really wants to hear it. If you are a semitone off, this is the worst clash.
However, I have heard some DJs (esp hard trance etc) cutting to a key that is a semitone above, which can sound great.
| quote: | If I go to camelot Sound and let's say I want to mix a good sounding +3 tunes
I will see
12B (E Major) +3 = 3B (D-Flat Major)
5B (E-Flat Major) +3 = 8B (C-Major)
2A (E-Flat Minor) +3 = 5A (C-Minor)
9A (E minor) +3 = 12A (D-Flat Minor)
I noticed there are 2 Main Keys here (D) & (C).
No Let's Assume that the real Key of the tune is (E-Minor), All the results posted above will have a good sound? |
No - as I said, you have to know your keys.
| quote: | I have four options here but If I choose 5A (C-Minor), that would actually be a +8, and I Haven't heard that +8 is a good sounding mix.
Can I mix from E-Minor into D-Flat Major, or into C-Major, or Viceversa from Major to minor? is this good or bad osunding, increasding or decreasing energy?
Thank You |
To mix major to minor, the best would be the relative minor, which would be the B with the same number as the major key you are in (e.g. 12B - 12A). To use camelot, you just find what key you are in, and choose tunes that are in one of the boxes next to your key. e.g. if you are in 2B, mixing with 1B, 3B, or 1A would be compatible. |
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