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God Help Us All !!! (pg. 6)
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by metalgearsolid
Relax what is with you? I can't wait till ultraviolet comes out. The movie is looking good and why must you look for a fight just admit it. Your the one looking for a fight. Just let it go man. You are so messed up from anger its just fruitless to be this way. Just lighten up man. |
Actually, I'm very relaxed and I'm far from being angry. :p :D
I am curious, however, about the comment you use as your location.
| quote: | metalgearsolid
Born to Die
Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Soon to be hell with Lucifer and someone else |
Why are you going to hell? What evils did you commit, or are just a Luciferian or something? |
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| metalgearsolid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trancer-X
Actually, I'm very relaxed and I'm far from being angry. :p :D
I am curious, however, about the comment you use as your location.
Why are you going to hell? What evils did you commit, or are just a Luciferian or something? |
Well I have not created any evils that would send me to hell but I have not lived the life I wanted to and I believe that if I don't live the way I want to its nothing short of hell. If I keep the same behaviour as I do I am in hell. Do you understand? I believe hell is not living the way one wants to. |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
You’re making my argument for me. That’s right, FDR didn’t know about genocide, Hitler’s ultimate ambitions, or the climactic but necessary battle that WW2 was going to be. That’s why when he was fighting to get the US into the war ever since war broke out, it was the wrong decision at the time. Knowing what we know now of course it seems like the right decision but hindsight is 20/20. For all FDR knew at the time, this could have been another European bloody stalemate. When his decision to go to war became the right decision was after Hitler successfully invaded and captured France, thus disrupting the balance of power in the Europe. Now let’s go back to see what I said, “FDR was right with respect to the war. But that only came to fruition ever since the invasion of France (not before).” Which you seem to be agreeing with based upon what you outlined above. So why the hell are you arguing with me if you agree with the premises behind my argument??
No one is disputing when the war started. What we’re disputing is when it was the “right” decision to bring America into the war with what was known at the time back then. What makes me think Hitler could have been contained in 1939? Well how about the Maginot Line? It certainly provided a false sense of comfort and security to the French. Of course once Hitler blitzkrieged France my mind would have changed after which I would have advocated involving America in the war. |
What? Your arguments make no sense. Once war was declared on Germany, it was done. Fight or die. FDR knew this. He didn't need to see how the war was progressing in order to know that one side was going to win, and one was going to lose...and he wanted England on the winning side. Jumping in to help a.s.a.p. with things like lend-lease and convoy assistance was CRUCIAL, as was noted by Churchill in his memoirs.
I think Bush may also know a thing or two that you don't about what is necessary right now in the world...only time will proove it for sure.
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider Despite that, the emancipation proclamation had many noticeable and immediate benefits of:
A)Building up foreign support for the Union as you so conveniently outlined above.
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That support was foregin support only. Here in the states, the idea was STILL not a popular one, even in the north. Much the way some of Bush's actions in Iraq are not popular today, I think that in time, we will see the benefits of not having Saddam in power any more.
We're so close to this point in history right now, that to make a finite judgement about Bush's Presidency would be impossible and not wise, imho. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
No one is disputing when the war started. What we’re disputing is when it was the “right” decision to bring America into the war with what was known at the time back then. What makes me think Hitler could have been contained in 1939? Well how about the Maginot Line? It certainly provided a false sense of comfort and security to the French. Of course once Hitler blitzkrieged France my mind would have changed after which I would have advocated involving America in the war.
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so, what makes france's sovereignty so much more important than poland's? or the czechs for that matter? and the US entered the war coz of japan's attack, not becoz of germany's invasion of france. whether hitler was involved in genocide or not, it was a regime worth fighting.
how can you say it wasnt "worth" fighting til france took it? are american lives worth more polish? what if france & england had appeased hitler yet again thus allowing him to invade russia early? would that have been a reasonable time for the US to get involved? how about the peoples of africa that were being killed by the italians? or the chinese by the japanese? all aggressive wars on unprovoking countries. doesnt or didnt a country like the US have an obligation to go to the aid of these nations?? |
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| metalgearsolid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trancer-X
Actually, I'm very relaxed and I'm far from being angry. :p :D
I am curious, however, about the comment you use as your location.
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You know am curious as to why you chose the thread title "[b]God]/b] Help Us All"! Do you a God follower??:conf: |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
... doesnt or didnt a country like the US have an obligation to go to the aid of these nations?? |
It was either that, or succumb to the Axis aggression. No choice, basically. We were just waiting for the excuse to jump in officially. Japan provided it. But we were fighting in that war long before we actually sent troops anywhere, via our production and supplying our allies. |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
It was either that, or succumb to the Axis aggression. No choice, basically. We were just waiting for the excuse to jump in officially. Japan provided it. But we were fighting in that war long before we actually sent troops anywhere, via our production and supplying our allies. |
We were basically in WWII earlier on (in the summer of 1941), via the AVG. It wasn't official, however - but war is still what it was. Because of the AVG, the boundaries between the Second Sino-Japanese War and WWII have become a little bit blurred, in my opinion - but I'm not claiming to be an expert on either.
And hey, I'll be the first one to admit that I'm positive that Wikipedia is wrong in their assertion that, (what I've highlighted in red)
| quote: | Unofficially, public opinion in the United States was becoming favorable to the Kuomintang. At the start of the 1930s, public opinion in the United States had tended to support the Japanese. However, reports of Japanese brutality added to Japanese actions such as the attack on the U.S.S. Panay swung public opinion sharply against Japan. By the summer of 1941, the United States had begun to sponsor the American Volunteer Group (later known as the Flying Tigers) to boost Chinese air defenses, though the AVG did not in fact go into combat until after the U.S. and Japan were at war. In addition, the United States began an oil and steel embargo which made it impossible for Japan to continue operations in China without another source of oil from Southeast Asia. This set the stage for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941 (8 December west of the 180th meridian).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-J...%281937-1945%29 |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by metalgearsolid
Do you a God follower??:conf: |
I do like I do, don't you? |
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| metalgearsolid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trancer-X
I do like I do, don't you? |
I do what I do but I don't do what I do..so did you like the pm I sent you? |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
We were just waiting for the excuse to jump in officially. Japan provided it. |
| quote: |
The American Volunteer Group (AVG), was created in the summer of 1941 as an element of the Chinese Air Force to aid in the war against Japan.... The group was commanded by retired U.S. Army Air Corps Captain Claire Lee Chennault who, prior to the creation of the AVG, was a civilian air advisor to China.
Technically, AVG personnel were under contract with a U.S. firm, the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company (CAMCO), which in turn was under contract with the Chinese government. As U.S. Air Force historical reports explain:
"Although the establishment of the AVG was undertaken independently of the United States government, members of the Roosevelt Administration, including the President himself, as well as Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox and Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau and others, played important roles in establishing the unit prior to Pearl Harbor. In fact, Secretary Morgenthau and other key officials arranged for the U.S. loan to the Chinese government that paid for the CAMCO contract. Furthermore, the Lend-Lease program was used to obtain the aircraft required by the AVG."
The applicant concludes from these "important roles" played by members of the U.S. government that the AVG was actually "... America's first Asian covert military operation of World War II," highlighting the fact that "In 1940, the U.S. had in operation the Neutrality Act forbidding military involvement in countries such as China." The applicant submits excerpts from an originally "Secret" 1944 Tenth Air Force historical study which explained that "... to avoid a breach of international law the entire project was organized as a commercial venture."
Armed with this background, the Board examined the application group against the relevant criteria. Determinations of active military service such as these are made on the extent to which civilian groups were under the control of U.S. Armed Forces in support of a military operation or mission during an armed conflict.... The Board determined that U.S. Armed Forces exerted control as if the group's members were military personnel from the outset of the United States entry into World War II, although this control was transitioning from covert to overt until April 1942.
(...)
The Board concluded the AVG was created to fill a wartime need, albeit initially in direct support of the Chinese since the U.S. had not entered the war. However, military histories indicate that while "... the need for protection of the Burma Road gave validity to his [Chennault's] case ... the opportunity for gaining valuable combat experience against Japanese-type aircraft was an especially persuasive consideration." Furthermore, military records show that authorization to "induct" the AVG into the U.S. Armed Forces was given immediately after Pearl Harbor, indicating plans had existed early on in the AVG's conception to eventually transform the AVG into a U.S. military unit. In summary, such documentation tends to support the applicant's conclusion that "The AVG was specifically created to circumvent existing neutrality laws that prohibited the U.S. at that time from direct military involvement. President Roosevelt knew that war with Japan was inevitable. The AVG was specifically created by the President to establish air bases within bombing range of Japan on China's friendly soil."
http://www.warbirdforum.com/vets.htm |
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trancer-X
And hey, I'll be the first one to admit that I'm positive that Wikipedia is wrong in their assertion that, (what I've highlighted in red) |
I think they are wrong too. And further, Greg Boyington was not dishonorably discharged, as they imply in April of 1942. I've read his memoir (twice). I don't recall him saying anything about being discharged dishonorably at this point in the war. If he was though, it likely had something to do with his having to resign first from the U.S. armed forces officially so that he could join the AVG. That way if he was shot down, he wasn't officially a U.S. Service Man attacking the Japanese, as that would have been grounds for them to declare war on us (prior to Dec. 7th I mean, of course).
Damn, wikipedia seems to have some big holes in their "facts".:( |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by donnybrasco
That way if he was shot down, he wasn't officially a U.S. Service Man attacking the Japanese, as that would have been grounds for them to declare war on us (prior to Dec. 7th I mean, of course).
Damn, wikipedia seems to have some big holes in their "facts".:( |
Yeah, and I know that at least one of those guys even flew under the guise of British RAF while still fighting in Burma. |
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