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Poll - What is a Liberal? (pg. 4)
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
I hear liberals have small...you know...hands. |
...and smell like cabbage? :conf: |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by ProudRepublican
Liberals hate God & murder babies. |
HAHAHA
Get some brain FFS . |
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| Kapedan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
...and smell like cabbage? :conf: |
yup like the Frenchies. |
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| deprivation |
to my understanding -
liberals are people who believe in changing laws, customs, ideas, and attitudes for better of society. conservatives - are people who believe in keeping traditional customs, ideas, laws, and attitudes. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
When evaluating where on the political spectrum lies one must look at the prevailing political culture of the state and use that as your centre. The US was founded by liberals (if "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" isn't the most blatent rip off of John Locke's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of property" then I don't know what is), however, it has shifted from that pure liberalism to a quasi mix of liberalism and conservatism. Subsequently, the centre of the spectrum in the US lies between the two and liberal becomes right of centre while conservative is left of centre (the opposite of what those unaware of ideology would have one believe). Canada was founded by conservatives (the "peace, order, and good government" preable to our constitution is a pretty clear rip from Hobbes). Over time the domonate political culture has shifted from conservatism toward socialism with the vast majority of Canadians identifying with a mix of the two. As a result Conservatism is a slightly right wing ideology here and liberalism is further down the right. The spectrum changes depending on what state you are looking at, what's on the right in one state may be the left in another. |
Ah, so when you said
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Liberalism is a rightward leaning ideology. |
you meant "in the US"? Then I disagree - liberalism is as much aligned with left-wing issues, as with right-wing ones, if not more. You might be right if you think in traditional right-wing issues in the US (the isolationism, minimization of government, etc.), but then your statement should have been "Liberalism used to be a rightward leaning ideology", I think.
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Jesus, what the hell has happened to PDD lately? |
Lack of role models. Since the regulars have stopped posting/getting involved, n00bs can't see how wonderful a real debate culture can be. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Ah, so when you said
you meant "in the US"? Then I disagree - liberalism is as much aligned with left-wing issues, as with right-wing ones, if not more. You might be right if you think in traditional right-wing issues in the US (the isolationism, minimization of government, etc.), but then your statement should have been "Liberalism used to be a rightward leaning ideology", I think.
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like most things, its a mixed bag. there are as many sub genres of liberalism as there is trance ;)
but on the whole, i would agree with moral hazard. liberalism is historically a centre-right position. though i strongly disagree with conservatism being placed on the left; conservatism is merely curtailed liberalism, or economic liberalisation combined with social conservatism imo. i dont think the left has a monopoly on things like freedoms, democracy, social equality, liberty etc, so (for me) its difficult to place liberalism on the left on those things alone.
the whole left-right things is way too simplistic. ideologies bleed into each other as much as edm does ;) |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Quite right, the US misuse of "liberal" must be resisted.
Anyways, I'm curious why you say that liberals are "to the right". How do you define "being more to the right"? I'd have claimed that the traditionally overused left-right dichotomy makes no sense once one applies such a high resolution worldview that one is capable of distinguishing ideologies such as liberalism and socialism. |
I think that's more or less what I was going to say. "Liberalism" in US politics seems to refer to basically any stance that could be considered "left-wing" in some sense. Indeed, many political hacks (O'Reilly, Hannity etc.) seem to use the terms "liberals" and "the left" interchangably which demonstrates a pretty wanton ignorance about what the term "liberalism" actually means. Trying to place "liberals" on the left / right axis is pretty futile, firstly because the defence of individual liberties is no more an aim of the economic left than the economic right (in theory anyway) and secondly because the philosophy of liberalism predates any conception of capitalism or socialism by a couple of hundred years.
The original pioneers of liberalism (Locke, Hobbes, Mill, Paine etc.) were basicially united by their belief in the sovereignty of the individual, and the freedom of the individual from the oppression of government. These men emerged from an English monarchical system in which the wealth, power and protection of the law were vested in the hands of the very few and their philosophy was a revolt against this ideology. On the one hand their single-minded defense of liberty for all may seem difficult to place within our current political climate, on the other hand - if you live in a liberal democracy - the chances are that it was inspired, at some point, by the ideas of these men (as someone pointed out before, the US constitution contains almost word-for-word excerpts from Locke's Second Treatise). It may seem hard to believe, but bascially everything that we take for granted about our democracies today is the result of the ideas of a small number of political radicals, mainly English, from the 17th - 18th centuries.
Now I may have painted classical liberals as what we'd today call "libertarians" so far (although the term "libertarianism" is another one that's been hijacked and misrepresented in the current US political climate - it originally pertained to issues of free-will, not to issues of political philosophy), but they differ from modern libertarians, I think, in that they were also enamoured with the concepts of "society" and "collectivism". Mill, as a utilitarian, spoke of the "greater good" and believed, essentially, that the best decisions were those which promoted the most "good" within the collective. Paine believed in economic egalitarianism and said that society was only ever as free as it's most underpriviliged members. Locke, although he essentially believed that no man owed debt to any other man, believed strongly in "equality" and the primacy of the collective, in issues of law and order, over the individual. So, if we take all this into account, we can see echoes of this early liberalism in both the major parties.
The Democrats, broadly, believe in the concept of economic equality and of the primacy of civil liberties ahead of economic liberties. The Republicans, broadly, believe in the concept of economic individualism and of the primacy of economic liberties ahead of civil liberties. Both of these worldviews, it must be said, can be traced back to the ideas of the early liberals, just with different emphases placed on different aspects of the philosophy. So, if you're asking what liberalism is, I can tell you that it's bascially any world-view that believes in the sovereign rights of the individual and of restrictions on the scope of government. Basically any western party you can name, I'd wager, could therefore be considered "liberal" in one way or another. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Yeah, I guess we all knew where this thread was going.
This thread is just a real winner.
Jesus, what the hell has happened to PDD lately? |
Totally gone to pot. Very few posts these days, and the ones that come out suck.
OMG PDD TOTALLY RULZ NOW!!!!11 |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Totally gone to pot. Very few posts these days, and the ones that come out suck.
OMG PDD TOTALLY RULZ NOW!!!!11 |
COR 2.0? |
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| Erotic Buddha |
| i heard liberals have small penises |
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| Shamen DJ's |
| quote: | Originally posted by Erotic Buddha
i heard liberals have small penises |
I think that comment reflects your age. I highly doubt that you are over the age of 16. Alot of us here are still waiting for you to post something intelligent, and not just some plagiarized name calling off of Rush Limbaugh |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
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Nice to see you posting again. Seeing that you agree with me, there's little I can add to your post
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
like most things, its a mixed bag. there are as many sub genres of liberalism as there is trance ;)
but on the whole, i would agree with moral hazard. liberalism is historically a centre-right position. though i strongly disagree with conservatism being placed on the left; conservatism is merely curtailed liberalism, or economic liberalisation combined with social conservatism imo. i dont think the left has a monopoly on things like freedoms, democracy, social equality, liberty etc, so (for me) its difficult to place liberalism on the left on those things alone.
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So, what the f*ck do you mean? Do you agree with me that the left-rigth dichotomy is useless in this debate, or do you have some kind of solid measure that allow you to peg people on a left-right scale? Moral Hazard thought that it was a historical cultural thing, but you seem to have some kind of absolute measure in mind?
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the whole left-right things is way too simplistic. ideologies bleed into each other as much as edm does ;) |
How does that differ from what I said? |
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