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Holland's new immigration test: Intolerant people not welcome (pg. 2)
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by drgoodvibe
comes back to the whole melting pot or mosaic ideology I think. Do you annex new immigrants and make sure that they adjust to "Nationalistic ideaology" or do you allow them to live with their own idealogy as long as they abide by the law? |
Clearly you do not understand the Mosaic theory. The idea is that people are allowed to express their culture while living within the broader national culture. The goal is that the best elements of all the smaller cultural groups will become part of the broader national identity, not that sub-cultures will be allowed to form and continue indefinately with zero intergration. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| I do love how the Netherlands has essentially stated that their immigration policy is "we don't tolerate intollerance." |
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| drgoodvibe |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
And problems arise when the immigrants try to adjust the country to what they want (such as implementing sharia laws)
Oh, and screaming that their rights are being violated when such demands are not met.
Problem with 'multicultural mosaic' vs 'melting pot' is that there is no sense of pride in their new country.
For example, whenever the Canadian national soccer team plays another nation in places like Mtl and Tor, it's like being at an away game for them. (Hence, why they play their home games at places like Edmonton and Calgary, where they are being cheered more often than being booed). US also suffers from similar syndrome. Like Mexico playing US at LA for example.
Nationalism is a powerful and dangerous force in hands of people who can manipulate it. But, lacking nationalism is also bad, as it allows a nation to be exploited by others who only want to take advantage of a nation and care not to contribute it.
It's ok to be proud of your homeland and your heritage. But it's also important to be proud of your new homeland and its heritage. (Esp when you have citizenship of new homeland!) |
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| TO guy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I do love how the Netherlands has essentially stated that their immigration policy is "we don't tolerate intollerance." |
lol, every line has an end to it though. |
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| drgoodvibe |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Clearly you do not understand the Mosaic theory. The idea is that people are allowed to express their culture while living within the broader national culture. The goal is that the best elements of all the smaller cultural groups will become part of the broader national identity, not that sub-cultures will be allowed to form and continue indefinately with zero intergration. |
I guess we disagree then. I don't think that the goal of integrating smaller cultural groups has happend very much at all. I feel that in reality there has been very little integration altogether. But hey my feelings are my own. Kudos to you. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Clearly you do not understand the Mosaic theory. The idea is that people are allowed to express their culture while living within the broader national culture. The goal is that the best elements of all the smaller cultural groups will become part of the broader national identity, not that sub-cultures will be allowed to form and continue indefinately with zero intergration. |
That would be an ideal situation.
But in reality, some groups do not want to integrate at all, whatever their reason might be. In a way, they choose to be 'outcasts'.
For example, if you're a chinese, you can come to Canada and never have to learn to speak english at all, because of huge chinese community and all the services available. It's like never leaving china in a way, except you also get Canadian govt services.
I don't think proponents of mosaic theory had that in mind. |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
And problems arise when the immigrants try to adjust the country to what they want (such as implementing sharia laws)
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and then they wonder why nobody likes immigrants. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
That would be an ideal situation.
But in reality, some groups do not want to integrate at all, whatever their reason might be. In a way, they choose to be 'outcasts'.
For example, if you're a chinese, you can come to Canada and never have to learn to speak english at all, because of huge chinese community and all the services available. It's like never leaving china in a way, except you also get Canadian govt services.
I don't think proponents of mosaic theory had that in mind. |
If you look at short term.... first generation then you're right. Generally speaking the second generation and certainly the third generation of new immigrant families are encouraged to intregrate fully into the host society. The reason you don't see this as clearly with the Asian and Indian migrant groups prevelent in Canada today is because the "first generation" is still arriving. Granted there are many families from these groups that have been here for many generations but those aren't the ones people point to and yell "LOOK, THEY DON'T ACT LIKE CANADIANS!!!" I should remind you all that the very same acusations were made against the Italian and Portuguese migrants 40 years ago. I doubt too many today believe they have not intregrated and/or enriched our national identity. Give it 30 years, enough time for the Asian and Indian migrants to have been settled for at least two generations and then judge whether or not they are intregrating. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
If you look at short term.... first generation then you're right. Generally speaking the second generation and certainly the third generation of new immigrant families are encouraged to intregrate fully into the host society. The reason you don't see this as clearly with the Asian and Indian migrant groups prevelent in Canada today is because the "first generation" is still arriving. Granted there are many families from these groups that have been here for many generations but those aren't the ones people point to and yell "LOOK, THEY DON'T ACT LIKE CANADIANS!!!" I should remind you all that the very same acusations were made against the Italian and Portuguese migrants 40 years ago. I doubt too many today believe they have not intregrated and/or enriched our national identity. Give it 30 years, enough time for the Asian and Indian migrants to have been settled for at least two generations and then judge whether or not they are intregrating. |
I see your point and to a degree, I agree with you.
However, I do see some trends among even 1.5 (kids born outside canada, but went to school here) and 2nd generation immigrants who do not want to integrate with Canadian society, at least not in the level that I'd consider 'good'.
For example, because of some neighbours being strongly dominated by a particular cultural group, even in schools it becomes harder to interact with other cultural groups, esp. in big cities. All your social activities revolve around members of same cultural group. I have observed this among some Koreans (which is my heritage). Imagine what would be like for some... more 'conservative' groups, maybe fundamentalist muslims who insist their girl kids wear a burqa all the time.
I do not disagree that no matter what, some 'Canadian' influence will reach every immigrant who does live in Canada. The question is whether our society can afford 30 yrs or whatever long time it takes for someone to adjust to Canadian society. (more importantly, WANT to be part of Canadian society) |
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| zokissima |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Clearly you do not understand the Mosaic theory. The idea is that people are allowed to express their culture while living within the broader national culture. The goal is that the best elements of all the smaller cultural groups will become part of the broader national identity, not that sub-cultures will be allowed to form and continue indefinately with zero intergration. |
The idea is great, but in execution, Canada is neither a melting pot, nor a mosaic theory. Far too many still cling desperately to their own groups and ideals.
Anyways, back to topic, I think its a very interesting idea. I wonder how they judge the recaption of it. Ok for those so openly intolerant to just quit their immigration plans. What about those that just lie? |
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| Mr. Sketchy |
| quote: | Originally posted by kabelicious
Can we make this a US requirement as well? And have all current US citizens take part as well? |
I would love this. I mean I love america cause its home. Sadly, I feel more at home when I am in Toronto. I am so sick of republican, religious, conservative morons.
It would be great to kick them out, start over, and try to rebuild our world image so I don't have to either lie or give a disclaimer when I say where I am from. |
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| Jayx1 |
im mixed on this.
On one hand its good to see that a country is demanding it's immigrants accept the ways of the culture they are applying to be apart of. This is BADLY needed in canada where 2nd and even 3rd generation canadians response to "where are you from" is usually a foreign country, often which they have never even visited.
On the other hand, i dont think its right for the government to control how people think and deny someone based on their personal beliefs about certain political topics. Who exactly sets the standards and what right do they have to speak for all citizens?
This is definately a mixed feeling for me. |
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