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How To Get To Heaven When You Die (pg. 8)
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx
Since I don't know what I am talking about that salvation is NOT of the law,could you kindly explain to me what these verses mean? |
Firstly, I'm not arguing that Paul believed salvation is "of the law" (that is, that adherence to the laws alone will find you salvation) and in fact I've been arguing the exact opposite the entire time. To quote myself from earlier:
| quote: | | Paul's argument is that mere adherence to the old Jewish laws is insufficient, in in itself, to win God's favour - this is also the message to be taken from the passages in Romans 3 you posted earlier. We are all in sin and the path out of sin is through the grace of divine spirit. |
What I'm arguing against here is your belief that "we are no longer under the law" or that, with Jesus, all of sudden the old commandments no longer apply. You are welcome to believe this if you want, but - like I have been saying - you won't find support for this in scripture. Paul and Jesus both entreaty their followers to follow the commandments (Mat 5:17-19, 1 Cor 7:19) even if they reject some of the more formal, "preistly" commandments (Luke 6:1-5, 1 Cor 10:25-26).
| quote: | | Please read them all and explain them instead of telling me how ignorant I am. |
I already have and you're repeating yourself. But, just for the fun of it:
| quote: | Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. |
Like I said the first time, read to the end of the chapter:
| quote: | | Ro 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. |
What part of this do you not understand? Faith, for Paul, is not something that excuses sin or the failure to "uphold" the law, it's something that delivers us from the "death" of sin in the first place. Paul saw the human body as frail and sick and that the acceptance of the spirit of Christ was the only way to prevent it from sinning. Yet again, I need to stress here that we do not become free from sin because there is no law left to sin against, but rather because the spirit rescues us from the sinful nature of "the flesh". This is all a part of Paul's recurrent theme of dualism between the goodness of spirit and the evil of the body: Paul's moral philosophy can only really be understood in this context.
| quote: | | Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. |
Paul here is contrasting his own apostleship with the apostleship of Peter and James. Peter and James were practicing Jewish Christians and - according to Paul at least (the Epistles of James and Peter are not especially expansive) - Peter was attempting to force gentiles into accepting "Jewish customs" (Gal 2:14) including circumcision, something Paul argued was unnecessary (Gal 6:15). Yet again, when he talks of being "justified" by the faith of Christ, he is arguing that the fastidious obedience to the law (which is what Peter, who Paul opposed "to his face" in Gal 2:11, was preaching) will not "justify" one in the eyes of God.
Yet again, look at the dualism: "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". This is related to Paul's concept that the body is inclined to sin and that this inclination can only be overcome with the acceptance of Christ. This is explored in depth throughout his letter to the Romans:
| quote: | 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. |
Romans 8:1-14
There is no abolition of the law or removal of the possibility of sin here, but rather the presentation of a path (namely that of Christ) that one may follow to avoid sin in the first place. Do you understand the distinction?
| quote: | Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. |
What Paul sees as the "curse" of the law was outlined in the Galatians passages I quoted a few posts ago. Essentially, none are capable of following the law to letter and in that capacity we are "cursed" to fall short of God's expectations (if there is anything approaching the concept of original sin in Paul's theology then it is this, but it is still a posteriori sin rather than the a priori sin of Catholicism). When he says that Jesus has "redeemed us from the curse of the law", he is saying - as I was arguing above - that faith in Christ gives one a path to avoid sin and to win justification in the eyes of God. The "curse" that one is predestined to sin has been lifted, because acceptance of spirit offers a path out of the "death of sin" - sin being made a curse for us.
| quote: | | Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. |
Read the context of this verse, that I posted above. This passage is referring to the weakness of the flesh and the power of the spirit. Paul is saying that we can fulfill the "righteousness of the law" (i.e. obey it) with the acceptance of Christ, not that belief in Christ obviates the need to observe the law.
| quote: | | Php 3:9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: |
Again, this concerns the dualism of flesh and spirit in Paul's theology and how acceptance of the spirit leads to righteousness, the mere obeying of the laws does not.
| quote: | | Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? |
So miracles are an article of faith rather than law? And this is supposed to help your case how?
| quote: | Conclusion:
Do you mean to say that these verses are lying and that you are right? |
It's not a case of the verses "lying" it's a case of understanding what they mean. You are offering a position (that with the death of Jesus the old laws stopped applying) that is not supported by scripture. All you've offered me in the way of proof is a few quotes taken exclusively from the Pauline epistles, showing no respect for the context in which they reside or for Paul's wider philosophy. Indeed, you also seem to be ignoring the rest of New Testement canon.
For instance:
- Jesus says: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
- James says: "Faith without deeds is useless" (James 2:20).
- Peter encourages gentiles to adopt "Jewish customs" (Gal 2:14) and argues that god judges "accoridng to each one's works" (1 Peter 1:17).
- The author of 2 John encourages us to follow in God's commandments (1 John 1:6).
- The author of Revelations says that God judges the dead "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Rev 20:12) and "Blessed are they that do [God's] commandments" (Rev 22:14).
Do you mean to say that these verses are lying and that you are right? |
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| xfrodobagginsx |
From the verses listed, it is my conclusion based upon what has been written in them that:
A) we are no longer under the law and
B) we are not justified by our works and
C) We are under grace and
D) works do not save
E) It is by faith in Jesus Christ alone that we are saved
Obviously, we must agree to disagree. Jesus came to fulfill the law and He did. Because He did that, we are no longer under the law but under grace as the bible says. You can't be under grace and the law at the same time.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(KJV)
The commandments that we uphold are only the ones re-iterated in the new testiment. Are you telling me that you sacrifice animals for your sins? Do observe the mosaic law? If you are to keep the law you must keep the entire law.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
(KJV) |
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| Moongoose |
| Im having a migrane reading this. I would go on another drunken rant right now but im not drunk. If you give me a couple of hours ill work on fixing that unfortunate situation if nothing important comes up. Nothing important comes up on sunday mornings anyway. |
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| xfrodobagginsx |
| The bottom line is that we need to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our lives, believe that He died on the cross and rose from the dead. If you will accept Him, believe in Him and acknowlege Him you will be saved. Please pray that prayer in this original thread and ask Him into your heart. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx
From the verses listed, it is my conclusion based upon what has been written in them that:
A) we are no longer under the law and
B) we are not justified by our works and
C) We are under grace and
D) works do not save
E) It is by faith in Jesus Christ alone that we are saved
Obviously, we must agree to disagree. Jesus came to fulfill the law and He did. Because He did that, we are no longer under the law but under grace as the bible says. You can't be under grace and the law at the same time.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(KJV)
The commandments that we uphold are only the ones re-iterated in the new testiment. Are you telling me that you sacrifice animals for your sins? Do observe the mosaic law? If you are to keep the law you must keep the entire law.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
(KJV) |
Buddy, I'm only going to say this one more time ... directly address the SCRIPTURE renegade uses in his arguements. If you can't respond to the scripture he quotes than at least acknowledge that between the scripture he quotes or the scripture that you quote, one set of scripture is wrong. Until you make any meaningful effort to debate this issue, you're just pissing in the wind. |
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| Wicked Neo |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Buddy, I'm only going to say this one more time ... directly address the SCRIPTURE renegade uses in his arguements. If you can't respond to the scripture he quotes than at least acknowledge that between the scripture he quotes or the scripture that you quote, one set of scripture is wrong. Until you make any meaningful effort to debate this issue, you're just pissing in the wind. |
I agree, this thread is going nowhere unless you do the above.
If you can't then i'll just close this thread |
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| shaolin_Z |
| I must say I'm quite impressed with Renegade's extensive research and analysis of a religious doctrine he does not adhere to, especially as a non-theist. Just out of curiousity, have you at any point in your life considered subsribing to it (I'm guessing that would have been a long time ago if at all)? |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx
Obviously, we must agree to disagree. |
"No I won't agree to disagree, because you are wrong - very, very wrong." - Father Ted.
I'll try one more time. If you don't address these verses directly, I can only assume that you are unable to and I shall therefore come to the conclusion that I am right and you are wrong and that will be the end of our discussion.
So please, frodo, tell me what Jesus meant in the following verses:
| quote: | | Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. |
Matthew 5:17-19
| quote: | 16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." |
Matthew 19:16-17
| quote: | | 16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. |
Luke 16:16-17
Either you are wrong or Jesus is wrong. Which is it?
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I must say I'm quite impressed with Renegade's extensive research and analysis of a religious doctrine he does not adhere to, especially as a non-theist. |
Thanks, it's something I've really made an effort to do over the past year actually. I started with reading the Bible cover to cover (something I probably wouldn't recommend to be honest - I'll give you the edited highlights if you ever feel like doing something similar) and then moved onto books by Biblical scholars and historians (my interest is in this area rather than the theology itself). As much as I never thought I'd hear myself say this, it's actually incredibly interesting once you start to get into it.
| quote: | | Just out of curiousity, have you at any point in your life considered subsribing to it (I'm guessing that would have been a long time ago if at all)? |
In short, no. I haven't. |
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| xfrodobagginsx |
1)When Jesus said that He didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it that is true. Because He fulfilled the law, we are no longer uner the law.
2)In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus tells the man "You know the commandments..." What Jesus was trying to establish was the fact that the man was not perfect. No one has ever kept the law.
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The law is the knowledge of sin. The law had a purpose. The purpose was to show us that we are sinners. Jesus Christ was the only one to ever keep the law. By putting your faith and trust in Him, you are keeping the law in God's eyes, even though you really haven't. Our richeousness is imputed or (put in) to us by Christ.
Ro 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
How are you going to understand spiritual things if (as someone has said, forgive me if I am mistaken) you are not a believer? You need the Holy Spirit to under stand the bible.
1Co 2:4 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. {judgeth: or, discerneth} {judged: or, discerned}
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
In short, no. I haven't. |
renegade's shortest answer in history :p |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx
How are you going to understand spiritual things if (as someone has said, forgive me if I am mistaken) you are not a believer? You need the Holy Spirit to under stand the bible.
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Yes. Well clearly one need be mad and devoid of logic if one were to try to reconcile the scriptural contradictions. You could at least make an attempt to deconstruct Renegade's scriptural references. After all they're from the bible. Yet all you do is counter with more scripture trying to prove the parts of the bible Renegade references as inaccurate. It's really a lose lose situation for you so I'm unclear as to why you even bother.
Wonderful circular reasoning however. So in order to understand the bible, you have to believe in the bible. Is that the first thing they teach you in Sunday school when confronted with logical arguements that are critiquing the bible? Never mind, I've taken enough Sunday school classes to know what they teach ... |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx
You need the Holy Spirit to under stand the bible. |
So what you are basically saying is that to understand God's words, God must give you the Holy Spirit? Because as Occrider pointed out, it is impossible to understand it unless you actually believe in it, and in order to believe in it, you must understand it (unless God gave you the Holy Spirit). So God decides who is comming to heaven and who is not then? Seems like a fair and nice enough God! |
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