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Buying Kidneys - A Good Thing? (pg. 3)
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
But a kidney operation is not more dangerous than other things in society that we agree is okay. Just imagine all the high risk jobs that we allow, which primarily poor people do - for the money. Why not ban them as well? Or make them low paid jobs so no one would do it for the money? Makes as much sense. |
im not worried about the kidney operation. i support the right of people to give their kidneys away all bloody day. but they cant sell it, because creating a market for organs prevents some people from using that market. i think the parallels you people are drawing leave a lot to be desired. the free market is NOT the best way to distribute ALL and EVERY good people need or desire.
at the end of the day, the civilised world agrees with me :cool:
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So, how does the 3rd world and developing countries protect themselves from this kind of cash for a kill type of proceedure? |
legislation preventing the import of organs. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
im not worried about the kidney operation. i support the right of people to give their kidneys away all bloody day. but they cant sell it, because creating a market for organs prevents some people from using that market. i think the parallels you people are drawing leave a lot to be desired. the free market is NOT the best way to distribute ALL and EVERY good people need or desire. |
So, was the issue with poor people buying, or selling, organs? I said I supported government paid kidneys - to a market price. Then the people receiving kidneys is not determined by their wallets, EVERYONE will get a kidney instead of thousands of people DIEING from not getting a kidney. The reason why the kidney market is such a dirty place today - "with a lot to be desired" - is because it is an illegal market, not a free market. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
So, was the issue with poor people buying, or selling, organs? I said I supported government paid kidneys - to a market price. Then the people receiving kidneys is not determined by their wallets, EVERYONE will get a kidney instead of thousands of people DIEING from not getting a kidney. The reason why the kidney market is such a dirty place today - "with a lot to be desired" - is because it is an illegal market, not a free market. |
the central issue for me is that organs should go to the most deserving, not the richest. |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
legislation preventing the import of organs. |
It'll be like UN charters though, some will sign it, some won't sign it until they get some diplomatic reason too and some won't just too be a pain in the international bum. Travelling overseas for specialist medical treatement isn't a new thing and I can see a lot of unscrupulous medical people setting up shop in a country which has no legislation.
Russia produces some excellent doctors, in their own country though they get awful pay so its not too hard too entice some of them for a relocation. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
It'll be like UN charters though, some will sign it, some won't sign it until they get some diplomatic reason too and some won't just too be a pain in the international bum. Travelling overseas for specialist medical treatement isn't a new thing and I can see a lot of unscrupulous medical people setting up shop in a country which has no legislation.
Russia produces some excellent doctors, in their own country though they get awful pay so its not too hard too entice some of them for a relocation. |
but there is nothing to stop that from happening now, with current arrangements in place. |
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| Lilith |
| Yes but lets not encourage it anymore. |
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| CranberryJuice |
i personally disagree with the idea to sell organs .....an organ donation is fine but not when it becomes a trade and where money is involved.....
so for u guys who support this idea *especially u ERIK* imagine this case
the kidney are paid by the government which will buy them but to who?prolly some people from the country itself right but as well from others countries ....for example china has a market of organs going on but just would like to point out the fact the kidney u will get how will u be sure it hasnt been taking off from an another person by strengh ?by torture (thinkin of tortures of prisoners in china for example) or even stolen?
i have no idea if u guys ever heard about that but i've once read in a country dunno where anymore the trade of eyes was going on so a lot of people without knowing it were operated by some doctors who were stolen the retine of their eyes to give them to others people
some products of human body can be in a market sperm blood hair but organs i truely think it's too dangerous once u allow people to sell organs .....it's like an open door |
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| Marc Summers |
| i singed my name with the organs for donars :) b0p |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
thats not a reasonable comparison. suicide isn't going to become a rich versus poor dynamic where the rich are benefiting from homeless people's suicides ;) things like organs should go to the most deserving, not those that can easily afford it. theres too much stratification in society as it is.
there was an interesting experiment recently, where doctors transplanted several donated organs from relatives on transplant lists. essentially they just matched up the blood types and got a relative of each recipient to donate to someone else, who in turn would donate to someone else etc. this is how transplants should work.
im not a fan of the nanny state any more than you are, but those better off already enjoy far healthier lifestyles, and the gift of life should never come down to how much cash you have in your bank account. |
There seem to be several issues at play here ... the taking advantage of the "poor" issue, and the "wealthy are disproportionally advantaged over the less wealthy" issue.
Let's try address each of those issues. With respect to the "poor" issue, you completely ignore the fact that the poor acheive some economic benefit as a result of their willing transaction ... otherwise they would not engage in such a transaction. Do you or I not take advantage of services that employ the poor in menial jobs? Are we therefore taking "benefit" from their social status? We're all allowed to make economic choices in life. Whether that involves sacrificing health by choosing to buy drugs or alcohol in the place of a home or food, that's a personal choice that we do not dictate to the poor. If the poor choose to sell their organs regardless of whether it is designed to acheive a better social status or buy drugs, why would you impose your own sense of morality to limit their freedom of choice? If you want to do that, let's restrict the poor's ability to buy alcohol, cigarrettes, fatty foods, luxury items, etc.
The second issue is that the wealthy would be disproportionally advantaged because they can afford to buy kidneys. This issue I am more agreeable to your point. However, I'm afraid you're a day late and a dollar short with this argument. Do you think that organ transplation as a whole with the current UNOS system is in any way equitable to the poor? Do you think that there isn't a black market already in place whereby the wealthy don't already take advantage of the poor? The fact that selling organs is an illegal market simply exacerbates the discrepancies between the rich being able to acquire organs as opposed to the poor. Furthermore take into account the financial costs of staying in a hospital, using a dialysis machine, and waiting for a kidney. Then take into account opportunity costs of that person not working during this time period. These are huge costs that one would incur ... costs that could potentially be mitigated and directed towards purchasing a kidney on a legitimate market.
To me, a free market of organs can pass the question of ethicacy and most certaintly passes the question of practicality. Questions of torture and illegal acquisation of organs are irrelevant to this argument. Governments and criminals can already do such a thing today if they so desire. As a matter of fact the premium prices of the black market simply facilitates this behaviour. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
occ, you are the worst ing "conservative" i have ever encountered :p
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Let's try address each of those issues. With respect to the "poor" issue, you completely ignore the fact that the poor acheive some economic benefit as a result of their willing transaction ... |
selling organs is probably the last thing anybody would ever do. i dont think its appropriate that as a society, we condone an underclass of people selling their body parts to an overclass of demanders. yeah, i know, the nanny state rears its ugly head but there are other issues at play, as what would happen to the system of giving should a legal market arise? it would obviously disappear.
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Do you or I not take advantage of services that employ the poor in menial jobs? Are we therefore taking "benefit" from their social status? We're all allowed to make economic choices in life. |
no, we dont take advantage of them (oooh, my marxist former self is rolling in his grave haha) any more than they might take advantage of us in our less menial jobs (though speak for yourself :( ).
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Whether that involves sacrificing health by choosing to buy drugs or alcohol in the place of a home or food, that's a personal choice that we do not dictate to the poor. If the poor choose to sell their organs regardless of whether it is designed to acheive a better social status or buy drugs, why would you impose your own sense of morality to limit their freedom of choice? If you want to do that, let's restrict the poor's ability to buy alcohol, cigarrettes, fatty foods, luxury items, etc. |
i understand all the arguments, in fact im just re-reading an old paper i wrote where i took much the same position as you. but the larger picture of what it might do to the overall supply of organs (or more importantly, to whom) is where my real problem lies.
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
The second issue is that the wealthy would be disproportionally advantaged because they can afford to buy kidneys. This issue I am more agreeable to your point. However, I'm afraid you're a day late and a dollar short with this argument. Do you think that organ transplation as a whole with the current UNOS system is in any way equitable to the poor? Do you think that there isn't a black market already in place whereby the wealthy don't already take advantage of the poor? |
well i have no idea what its like in the states, but im reasonably sure its not quite that bad over here. i have no idea how UNOS works im afraid.
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
The fact that selling organs is an illegal market simply exacerbates the discrepancies between the rich being able to acquire organs as opposed to the poor. |
but does it? just because a black market exists doesn't mean there aren't legitimate transplantees getting the organs they have lined up for and deserve. creating an open-slather market environment would remove any chance of poor patients receiving the organs, given how much of a shortage exists.
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Furthermore take into account the financial costs of staying in a hospital, using a dialysis machine, and waiting for a kidney. Then take into account opportunity costs of that person not working during this time period. These are huge costs that one would incur ... costs that could potentially be mitigated and directed towards purchasing a kidney on a legitimate market. |
well, in that case, we move to my second position, where i would advocate the purchase of organs by the government and given to those sitting on waiting lists. for something as precious as a "normal life", the prices an individual would have to pay would far outstrip the capacity the disadvantaged possess to afford them. yes, a market would certainly increase supply, but i really cant see that supply ending up anywhere but the upper echelons of society. so you have the healthy poor selling their organs to the unhealthy rich, whilst the unhealthy poor now have absolutely no hope of ever receiving their organ of necesity. |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | | Do you or I not take advantage of services that employ the poor in menial jobs? Are we therefore taking "benefit" from their social status? We're all allowed to make economic choices in life. |
Having never been a 'Marxist' ('capitalist pig' maybe :happy2: ) I've got no real qualms about dealing with the with the world as it is or have a large amount of idealistic views on worldwide social reform. Mostly because I've seen the best and worst in people which for the most part involves the best for themselves and immediate family at the cost of some others being worse off.
Cynical?
No, just a realist I guess.
Having seen a few aid programs at work here and there, the best ways are for people too help themselves and education rather than just giving them lump sums of money. All lump sums of money do in the local economies is cause inflation and you get a massive disparity between the haves and have-nots in the community.
We're not talking about the poor folks on the wrong side of the tracks living on government cheese and mcdonalds here just getting by with 2-3 part time jobs, youre talking people on the same side of the tracks with once full time work wages, worth nothing.
Bread one day which costs half a days work normally overnight becomes worth a weeks wages for people and in desperation too keep up at a subsistance level you'll soon find they fall into this kind of trap of having too do things which buck the social norm and destroy all form of sensibility in the community. |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | | To me, a free market of organs can pass the question of ethicacy and most certaintly passes the question of practicality. Questions of torture and illegal acquisation of organs are irrelevant to this argument. Governments and criminals can already do such a thing today if they so desire. As a matter of fact the premium prices of the black market simply facilitates this behaviour. |
Ethically, well for me it's kind of starting too creep down too the level of extremely degrading desperation for already poor-off people.
Nice thing about kidneys is theres two of them.
So, we're just drawing a line in the sand here with kidneys or should there be an allowance for any organ which comes in 'twos'?
Eyes, get by with one eye.
Hand, probably get by with one hand if you had too.
Lung, can get by with one lung, its not fun but you can.
Skin, plenty of that, it'll grow back eventually, look ugly but hey what the heck just peel a bit off for a few bucks.
Ear? I guess so.
Starts getting kind of gristly really considering some of the countries these organs will probably be coming from I'm a bit more than passingly familiar with so illegal aquisition is still an issue. Indeed, some of these countries the corruption is so endemic I'd factor it into my travelling allowance for bribes and security payments too people in the government who are usually functioning as the local criminal element as well!
This is the kind of ethical dilemma I'm fairly sure will be hitting the shores of western and eastern countries which are better off than their neighbours.
You've got 150,000* people sitting on death row in hospitals a year
You've maybe got 15,000* coming in a year from conventional donations
We often make bold statements about how we'd do anything for our countrymen and women, how hard we'd fight, how much we'd try too help when theyre in a tough spot and how we'd go through hell too help a family member.
So, whats a little bit closer too hell anyway?
When your neighbour from down south, north, over the pond comes too you and says, we can fill that gap of 135,000 missing donations a year.
How much
How much do you need?
How much do you really care if its someone close too you?
*example only |
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