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*UPDATE* A rush to Judge - Another Lie from US Admin? (pg. 4)
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
:haha: :haha: :haha: Alright then, using this analogy lets blame Russia for "selling" Kalashnikovs to the Iraqi resistance ... :stongue: |
that would be in the wrong context.
| quote: | | Iran didnt make these guns, and quite frankly they're not the only ones who have them. There's no proof, no fingerprints, no manufacturing numbers matching with database/receipt that proves this. Its just speculation, and in the case of that article - a speculation with no hard evidence, just propaganda aimed against Iran, just like the famous WMD's proof. :stongue: |
this is just amazing to me.
a more credible and plausible argument would have been to claim that the story was false and that the guns found in Iraq don't really exist, but instead you make the INCREDIBLE leap in logic that the finding of these guns in Iraq is a mere coincedence based only on your assertion that Iran isn't the only ones that have these guns.
truly amazing is the depth of asymetrical scepticism used in whatever argument there is anti-American. truly amazing.
| quote: | | Are the suicide bombers Iranian as well? |
some are, yes.
| quote: | | There's plenty of evidence to point that out, plus the bombs evidence, too |
correct. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
that would be in the wrong context.
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No, not really. Kalashnikovs are Russian weapons (not always Russian-made, but thats not the point), but noone's blaming Russia for Iraqi resistance having them?
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this is just amazing to me.
a more credible and plausible argument would have been to claim that the story was false and that the guns found in Iraq don't really exist, but instead you make the INCREDIBLE leap in logic that the finding of these guns in Iraq is a mere coincedence based only on your assertion that Iran isn't the only ones that have these guns.
truly amazing is the depth of asymetrical scepticism used in whatever argument there is anti-American. truly amazing.
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Whats anti-Americanism have to do with this? I was merely stating that there's absolutely NO evidence to point that Iranian government is supporting the Iraqi resistance. I dont think you can blame Iranian government for few crazy radical Iranian citizens to slip the border to join the anti-American crusade - heck, everyone's done it, especially people whose citizenships are supposedly American allies, well well, be it Saudi Arabia, Pakistan ... LOL. Why not blame Saudi Arabia for supporting Iraqi resistance then, since its citizens have been caught killing Americans, especially on 9/11? Put aside the double standards, my friend!
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some are, yes.
correct. |
Would be nice if you presented evidence of Iranian government supplying Iraqi resistance with arms and troops. And few Iranian Shiites who decide to sneak in and blow themselves up is not a proof, just like it wasnt proof enough that on 9/11 even though most of terrorists were Saudis, their government was not supporting the terrorists. KAPISH??? So buzz of Iranians, they dont need to inflate the situation - last time I checked it was the American government who was agigating Iran, by seizing its diplomats (ilegally), and starting the war with no proof in the first place.
You just fell for the simple old excuse - instead of accepting defeat in Iraq because of sectarian violence, you along with American government decide to find a scapegoat ... and blame someone else - conveniently, Iran! Yeah, way to go bro!!!! Just like after invasion of Afghanistan it was not enough, so Iraq had to be the next chain, next terrorist state ... what's next, Iran? And then, Turkmenistan? Oh, boy, there's a pattern here! :haha: :haha: :haha: |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
No, not really. Kalashnikovs are Russian weapons (not always Russian-made, but thats not the point), but noone's blaming Russia for Iraqi resistance having them? |
there have been easily MILLIONS of Kalishnikovs, real and knock-off, in existence in Iraq since the dawn of time. this is different.
| quote: | | Put aside the double standards, my friend! |
to assume the report is accurate, these weapons (over 100 of them) were all found during a 24hr. period in a series of raids three days ago.
Fact: these same weapons, 800 of these same types of weapons, were sold to the Iranian government by Austria for $15.5 million dollars ($20,000 a piece) back in Feb. last year.
Fact: we pleaded with the Austrians not to sell the rifles to Iran.
Fact: the Iranian government insisted that they were only to be used for their border patrol agents.
there are no double standards here. just like there are no coincedences either. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Would be nice if you presented evidence of Iranian government supplying Iraqi resistance with arms and troops. |
it would be nice, however you would still try and blame America first before considering any other option, right? |
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| Sunsnail |
| All guns have serial numbers on them. More than likely they would match up with the records they have in Austria (if Iran did distribute them to Iraqis) |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
to assume the report is accurate, these weapons (over 100 of them) were all found during a 24hr. period in a series of raids three days ago.
Fact: these same weapons, 800 of these same types of weapons, were sold to the Iranian government by Austria for $15.5 million dollars ($20,000 a piece) back in Feb. last year.
Fact: we pleaded with the Austrians not to sell the rifles to Iran.
Fact: the Iranian government insisted that they were only to be used for their border patrol agents.
there are no double standards here. just like there are no coincedences either. |
First of all, that Austrian company has done business with several countries. The fact that Iran bought them and then Iraqis were found to have them could have been easily implanted by Americans. In a year that Austrian company could have sold these rifles to G-d knows how many people. Its not evidence, its only speculation.
As for your Austrian pleading - quite frankly, United States sells weapons to democracies and dictators alike - actually they do better business with dictatorships cause they need vast weaponry to sustain themselves. Remember Contra? But thats not the thread, but Austrians could sell the weapons to whomever the want.
That telegraph.co.uk article is fishy anyway, I recall reading a lot of bull on that website before (the opening post of this thread is right), just like reading about how wonderful Russia is on a Russian website. I read a few minutes ago an article on their website about Turkmenistan's elections, and it was the one of the worst double-standards in some time, written by idiots ... i.e. "turkmenistan's gas can be shipped to Europe bypassing Russia to avoid Russian bullying" LMAO ... yeah, they forget to note than Turkmen gas goes to Europe THROUGH Russia. So I lost credibility for that site, its a lot of pro-American journalism there.
While you fail to address the common sense issue here - why Iran is blamed now, not 2-3 years ago when resistance started? Since American campaign in Iraq is disaster, they now turn for a scapegoat, like they did after 9/11, after invasion of Afghanistan, like now. Its a political campaign to create a new enemy to shift the war, gain support/votes, they'll probably invade/bomb Iran. You see what's happening? This is not a war on terrorism. Its a war of globalization, using different criteria and excuses to take over the world. There's no Osama Bin Laden in Iran. There was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before invasion, just like there was no 9/11 connection to Iraq.
Trust me, when evidence of Iranian involvement appears, it will not be some shady article on telegraph.co.uk, it will be frontpage news, because western media propaganda machine is looking for an excuse to blame someone else for American setbacks in Iraq. And American people will probably buy it. You see now? You dont have evidence, there is none, unless you'll try to shove another pro-American journalist article, reminding me of the famed WMD's reports in Iraq. American government no longer has credibility. They lied about Iraq, they lied about WMD's, they're lying right now. Though Iran is no angel and this unrest in Iraq is strengthening their position, they hardly have to do anything. Recall the reports almost weekly on resistance fighters dying in big numbers after American "operations"? How come there's no Iranians in there? How come they're just Al-Qaeda or Iraqi resistance? Notice there's no media claims that Al-Qaeda agents are Iranian. Iranians are scared less of Al-Qaeda,, they handed over their agents before, despite all the fuss that Iran being the terrorist state:
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s646675.htm
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sunsnail
All guns have serial numbers on them. More than likely they match up with the records they have in Austria. |
thats what all this is contingent upon, really. so, in my case, there is no need to get all worked up about this as of yet...
guns of that nature and what Steyr has said recently is that serial #'s are on several key places incuding the bolt and/or breech, the barrel and other places sensitive to machining. snipers usually do not like to alter those parts in any way. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sunsnail
All guns have serial numbers on them. More than likely they match up with the records they have in Austria. |
In that case this wouldn't be some shady article, but it will be front-page news - HEY, IRAN HAS BEEN CAUGHT GIVING WEAPONS TO IRAQI RESISTANCE - but for now all there is, just some shady pro-American journalist articles that are more theory than fact. When this does materialize and be conclusively proven, THEN WE'LL BE TALKING, because I KNOW Americans will make a huge media frenzy out of this, no doubt about it. But I doubt it will happen, because these guns are probably not Iranian, though I would be happy to see Iranian connection here because I know they're not sitting with arms folded.
In one year between the contract with Iran and the discovery of weapons last week, that Austrian company could have sold those guns to so many companies and people. The link is weak, its just like blaming Iraq for 9/11 attacks all over again. And western media really covered well the WMD's campaign - but when they didnt find any, that same media was silent from criticizing the American government. Thats just one example of a million of double standards.
This is obviously a campaign to support the extension of the Iraqi war, to pull Iran in it, to blame someone else for own failures. No brainer. The American defeat in Iraq is obvious, and no matter how many foreigners or Al-Qaeda within, the vast majority of resistance is done by Iraqis themselves, who are getting very fed up with American occupation and lack of progress. |
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| Sunsnail |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
In that case this wouldn't be some shady article, but it will be front-page news - HEY, IRAN HAS BEEN CAUGHT GIVING WEAPONS TO IRAQI RESISTANCE - but for now all there is, just some shady pro-American journalist articles that are more theory than fact. When this does materialize and be conclusively proven, THEN WE'LL BE TALKING, because I KNOW Americans will make a huge media frenzy out of this, no doubt about it. But I doubt it will happen. |
Ya probably.
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
In one year between the contract with Iran and the discovery of weapons last week, that Austrian company could have sold those guns to so many companies and people. The link is weak, its just like blaming Iraq for 9/11 attacks all over again. And western media really covered well the WMD's campaign - but when they didnt find any, that same media was silent from criticizing the American government. Thats just one example of a million of double standards. |
Well, each gun would have its specific serial number. If a gun that was sold to Iran was found in Iraq, they would know definitively by checking the numbers. I'm not saying they did give them to Iraq though. :) |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
First of all, that Austrian company has done business with several countries. The fact that Iran bought them and then Iraqis were found to have them could have been easily implanted by Americans. In a year that Austrian company could have sold these rifles to G-d knows how many people. Its not evidence, its only speculation.
As for your Austrian pleading - quite frankly, United States sells weapons to democracies and dictators alike - actually they do better business with dictatorships cause they need vast weaponry to sustain themselves. Remember Contra? But thats not the thread, but Austrians could sell the weapons to whomever the want.
That telegraph.co.uk article is fishy anyway, I recall reading a lot of bull on that website before (the opening post of this thread is right), just like reading about how wonderful Russia is on a Russian website. I read a few minutes ago an article on their website about Turkmenistan's elections, and it was the one of the worst double-standards in some time, written by idiots ... i.e. "turkmenistan's gas can be shipped to Europe bypassing Russia to avoid Russian bullying" LMAO ... yeah, they forget to note than Turkmen gas goes to Europe THROUGH Russia. So I lost credibility for that site, its a lot of pro-American journalism there.
While you fail to address the common sense issue here - why Iran is blamed now, not 2-3 years ago when resistance started? Since American campaign in Iraq is disaster, they now turn for a scapegoat, like they did after 9/11, after invasion of Afghanistan, like now. Its a political campaign to create a new enemy to shift the war, gain support/votes, they'll probably invade/bomb Iran. You see what's happening? This is not a war on terrorism. Its a war of globalization, using different criteria and excuses to take over the world. There's no Osama Bin Laden in Iran. There was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before invasion, just like there was no 9/11 connection to Iraq.
Trust me, when evidence of Iranian involvement appears, it will not be some shady article on telegraph.co.uk, it will be frontpage news, because western media propaganda machine is looking for an excuse to blame someone else for American setbacks in Iraq. And American people will probably buy it. You see now? You dont have evidence, there is none, unless you'll try to shove another pro-American journalist article, reminding me of the famed WMD's reports in Iraq. American government no longer has credibility. They lied about Iraq, they lied about WMD's, they're lying right now. Though Iran is no angel and this unrest in Iraq is strengthening their position, they hardly have to do anything. Recall the reports almost weekly on resistance fighters dying in big numbers after American "operations"? How come there's no Iranians in there? How come they're just Al-Qaeda or Iraqi resistance? Notice there's no media claims that Al-Qaeda agents are Iranian. Iranians are scared less of Al-Qaeda,, they handed over their agents before, despite all the fuss that Iran being the terrorist state:
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s646675.htm
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so in other words
A: the entire story is a fabrication, or...
B: someone else planted the weapons there. (probably the Americans), or..
C: the rifles ended up there by another country that purchased the same weapons.
...but it couldn't be the Iranian military industrial complex because even though Iran is "no Angel", America wants to "take over the world".
i most certainly "KAPISH" |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
youre not wrong, but are you minimizing the smaller no. of deaths attributed to Iran? |
No more than you or our librul press is minimizing the # of deaths attributed by the Sunni insurgents and the endless weaponry supplies they appear to always have by not holding press conferences of this magnitude without cameras or recording devices and with high ranking U.S. officials speaking on anonymity.
It does beg the question, however, who the hell is funding the Sunnis and their cache of weaponry?
| quote: | i really don't have an explaination for that and can't find one.
i can only say intel can be very fluid even outside a huge beaurocracy. |
That's part of the reason why I'm hesitating to draw any decisive conclusions just yet, but I think it's worth showing where exactly our Administration and our leading military officials stand right now. Let's see how this unfolds a bit further. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
No more than you or our librul press is minimizing the # of deaths attributed by the Sunni insurgents and the endless weaponry supplies they appear to always have by not holding press conferences of this magnitude without cameras or recording devices and with high ranking U.S. officials speaking on anonymity.
It does beg the question, however, who the hell is funding the Sunnis and their cache of weaponry? |
You are bringing a very interesting point opus here,who is exactly funding the sunnis? I was actually thinking about this awhile back myself and I find it a bit strange that nobody is asking any sort of question regarding the support behind Sunni's. |
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