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harmonic mixing confusion
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Hey everyone,
a question...
I really want to learn harmonic mixing but something baffles my mind about it
track A on the deck is in c minor at 140 bpm
I have an indexed track in my bag that is 135bpm at say....f minor
If I'm spinning these tracks live infront of tons of people I dont really have the time to work out exactly how much of a pitch increase I'm going to have to shift on my tables, which means I cant exactly do the math to see if this record at it's new speed is going to mix well.
Can anyone let me know how you can be in the mix and mix harmoniously on the fly. It's just really confusing me, if anyone has a system they use, would you be able to let me know so I can start doing this.
Jer |
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| discobiscuit |
| to advanced for me lol i just use equip/programs w/ pitch lock |
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| Mmanu |
1. you need the right tools, with key lock or master tempo.
2. slide you fader to obtain the required key.
3. Lock it.
4. Beatmatch. |
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| Omega_Blue |
if you key all of your tracks at a set BPM, it won't matter how much/what percentage/etc etc of a pitch shift you make. two tracks of the same key at the same BPM will always be in key with each other, regardless of the BPM.
honestly i think it's too much bull to sit there and do the math to figure out at which pitch percentage a key changes. especially if you have a track that's a semi-tone too sharp or flat.. no one in the dj booth agrees with me though, so whatever.
and using the pitch lock function (which for one doesn't work with vinyl) limits what songs you can mix in which key. pitch lock is most effective around +/- %2 or so, so if you have one song that's originally @ 120bpm and another @ say.. 130bpm (but for example are both in the key of A @ 125 bpm), it won't match correctly. |
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| agentdansmith |
| quote: |
if you key all of your tracks at a set BPM |
What exactly do you mean by this?
I recently did a mix (all in key) by first of all choosing what BPM I'd like the mix to be and then picking the tunes that I wanted to play. Then I'd got through each tune that wasn't anywhere near 135bpm and work out the new Key code and wrote this code next to the track.
I was then left with a load of tunes with their new keycodes ready to mix in whichever order sounded right.
Is this what you meant? Or are you using another system? |
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| BOOsTER |
| quote: | Originally posted by agentdansmith
Then I'd got through each tune that wasn't anywhere near 135bpm and work out the new Key code and wrote this code next to the track.
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I wanna see you do all this live on stage :D |
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| Stu Cox |
I agree, master tempo is pretty useless.
The rule of thumb I use is:
If the tempos of two tracks are within about 2% of each other and their original keys match then the mix will sound ok harmonically
If you've got the tempo of each track marked on the record/cd then you can simply make sure the tracks are within 2 or 3 BPM of each other (2% @ 130bpm gives a tolerance of 2.6 bpm either side).
Otherwise:
1. Beatmatch your tracks
2. Check the pitch offset you've got each one set to
3. If the difference in pitch positions is less than about 2%, it should sound ok (as long as the tracks are in matching keys)
e.g. if you've got a track playing at +2.3% and when you beatmatch a track in the same key the other track ends up set to 4.1% or something then they should sound near enough in key (4.1% - 2.3% = 1.8%, which is of course less than 2%).
I know particularly this latter part is a bit of a pain in the arse having to work it out on the fly, particularly if they don't turn out to be near enough so you then either have to pick another track or just make the mix pretty sharp so they don't clash... so I'd go down the route of writing the tempos of your tracks on your tunes if I were you!
You can then extend this if you like - if the difference in tempos is more than about 4% but less than about 8% (so between 5 BPM and 10 BPM apart) and the faster track is a key above the slower track, then it should work... so if one track's in Am and is 132 BPM and one's in Bbm and is 138 BPM then they should sound OK when mixed.
It does add a whole extra element to think about, which is why a lot of harmonic mixing DJs plan their sets quite extensively in advance... that's not for me, I like to be flexible to suit the crowd etc but it does mean thinking ahead by a couple of tracks! |
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
if you key all of your tracks at a set BPM, it won't matter how much/what percentage/etc etc of a pitch shift you make. two tracks of the same key at the same BPM will always be in key with each other, regardless of the BPM. |
What he means by this is if you've got a tune at 130, a tune at 135 and a tune at 140, instead of writing down the key each track is in when they're each at 0%, beatmatch each one to 135 BPM first (for example) then write down the key the track has there.
The problem is that if you take a track which is in Am at 130 BPM and beatmatch it to 135 BPM, it's actually then half way between Am and Bbm (very slightly nearer Bbm), so if you've got a track which is bang on Am at 135 BPM and a track bang on Bbm at 135 BPM then it'll sound with both of them. The way I've found around this is to write, in this example,
"Am +3.8%"
(where the +3.8% is the pitch change needed to make it the standard tempo, 135 BPM in this case)
next to the track in the tracklist, which tells me that it'll sound in key with another track in Am with an offset within 2% of that one (so between +1.8% and +5.8%)... although with normal tunes you might as well just use the key & tempo.
I've actually just started using the system I've just described for my loop CDs, but that's because every loop is beatmatched to 138 BPM so it makes sense (they used to be timestretched to keep them in the same key but that then meant that a lot of them were no longer in the same key as the original track if I wanted to use the two together).
Basically, unless you're going to start beatmatching (or even timestretching) all of your tracks to the same tempo before you burn them, I'd just stick with writing down the key and the tempo on your tunes. |
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| agentdansmith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
What he means by this is if you've got a tune at 130, a tune at 135 and a tune at 140, instead of writing down the key each track is in when they're each at 0%, beatmatch each one to 135 BPM first (for example) then write down the key the track has there.
The problem is that if you take a track which is in Am at 130 BPM and beatmatch it to 135 BPM, it's actually then half way between Am and Bbm (very slightly nearer Bbm), so if you've got a track which is bang on Am at 135 BPM and a track bang on Bbm at 135 BPM then it'll sound with both of them. The way I've found around this is to write, in this example,
"Am +3.8%"
(where the +3.8% is the pitch change needed to make it the standard tempo, 135 BPM in this case)
next to the track in the tracklist, which tells me that it'll sound in key with another track in Am with an offset within 2% of that one (so between +1.8% and +5.8%)... although with normal tunes you might as well just use the key & tempo.
I've actually just started using the system I've just described for my loop CDs, but that's because every loop is beatmatched to 138 BPM so it makes sense (they used to be timestretched to keep them in the same key but that then meant that a lot of them were no longer in the same key as the original track if I wanted to use the two together).
Basically, unless you're going to start beatmatching (or even timestretching) all of your tracks to the same tempo before you burn them, I'd just stick with writing down the key and the tempo on your tunes. |
Cool, cheers mate - this is pretty much what I'm doing now. Writing down the key codes at the new tempo rather than before at their original tempo. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
The problem is that if you take a track which is in Am at 130 BPM and beatmatch it to 135 BPM, it's actually then half way between Am and Bbm (very slightly nearer Bbm), so if you've got a track which is bang on Am at 135 BPM and a track bang on Bbm at 135 BPM then it'll sound with both of them. The way I've found around this is to write, in this example,
"Am +3.8%"
(where the +3.8% is the pitch change needed to make it the standard tempo, 135 BPM in this case)
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I agree, but the same problem occurs with "doing the math" if you give it a +/- "tolerance" then some songs will be that slight semi-tone off and imo it will sound like crap. say you follow a +/- 2% rule, and one song is +2%, and the other is -2%, you are assuming that they will probably work when in fact there is a 4% difference between the tracks. you know what i mean? i just think that using a tolerance is somewhat like guessing: they may not be quite right but by doing the math and looking at it on paper you can reasonably assume that they'll sound ok..
if you do it as i do, all of the songs that are say.. in between Bb and B (a semitone at best) will mix with each other and you'll know not to mix it with the straight up B or Bb tunes. however a lot of times the semitones are so minute that most people won't hear the difference. and 90% of the time, the songs fit in an actual key and not a semitone, there are very few songs in my list that are like, an A#b or however you wanna describe it. and in the end, i would rather have a list that says "this song, this song, and this song are in the same key" than "this song, when pitched a certain percentage, will most likely be in key with... wait lemme bust out the calculator and the pencil.." it's the same method as just knowing your tunes are in the same key, which i'm assuming is how dj's did it before all this mumbo jumbo came about. and furthermore it's a breeze to key your tunes to a certain tempo with a proggie like traktor where you can just hit "sync" and figure it out from there. |
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| agentdansmith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
I agree, but the same problem occurs with "doing the math" if you give it a +/- "tolerance" then some songs will be that slight semi-tone off and imo it will sound like crap. say you follow a +/- 2% rule, and one song is +2%, and the other is -2%, you are assuming that they will probably work when in fact there is a 4% difference between the tracks. you know what i mean? i just think that using a tolerance is somewhat like guessing: they may not be quite right but by doing the math and looking at it on paper you can reasonably assume that they'll sound ok.. |
That's what he was saying. When using the 2% rule, that means 2% from the currently playing tunes tempo and not 2% from the tunes default tempo. Otherwise, yes, you would be way off.
I do still believe though that you can get away with some tunes that do not have the same key. I've got a few that dont have the same keys but sound absolutely great together - the sudden key change actually sounds great and gives the mix a sudden energy drive! |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by agentdansmith
That's what he was saying. When using the 2% rule, that means 2% from the currently playing tunes tempo and not 2% from the tunes default tempo. Otherwise, yes, you would be way off.
I do still believe though that you can get away with some tunes that do not have the same key. I've got a few that dont have the same keys but sound absolutely great together - the sudden key change actually sounds great and gives the mix a sudden energy drive! |
ahh, i misunderstood. yeah harmonic mixing has more to do than just mixing in the same keys. sets would be boring if a dj played a set entirely in the key of C or something lol. a basic understanding of intervals and chord structure goes a long way. most likely those songs in different keys that sound great together are complimentary or share many of the same notes (such as Cmaj and Am in extreme cases). |
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