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Poor Toronto...no seriously, we're poor. (pg. 2)
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Highroller
Exactly. We need money from the feds. Toronto pays out way too much money in transfer payments for how much in the red we are. |
You really can't fault the feds for not stepping in though. It's not their responsibility under the British North America Act of 1867, where all the responsibilities of each levels of government is laid out. Province is in charge of local municipalities. Oddly enough, there's like one subsection detailing what a municipal govt is suppose to do. Clearly our founding fathers did not think, or cared much about municipalities.
The problem with municipalities is that they've ended up with so much responsibilities that affects a citizen's daily life (parks, garbage, emergency services, etc) but has the fewest ways to generate funds. (mainly property tax, some from licensing and a lot from provincial govts giving free money)
I think reforms are needed overall to address the shortfalls for municipal govts, as clearly we've grown out of outdated BNA act for municipal govts, esp. for big cities.
But first, boot Miller out of office! :p |
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| malek |
| exactly the last we need is federal govt involvement in the cities. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Highroller
Exactly. We need money from the feds. Toronto pays out way too much money in transfer payments for how much in the red we are. |
because Toronto is the CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE right? |
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| dEsidEL |
poor or mismanaged?
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| Dr. DAS |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
because Toronto is the CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE right? |
Damn right!
I'm from Hamilton originally so take this for what's worth as an outsider/new import...
Toronto is the centre of Canada's financial engine and the largest city. Toronto is also the primary entry point by air and I'm sure the top city in Canada's tourism revenue.
We don't need more money from the Feds, we need to be able to reduce our outgoing transfer payments. Quite simply, there is more money going out of Toronto then there is going in because of outdated policy. That's not to say I'm letting Miller off the hook (still hasn't used that broom, eh?, the 'new' city of Toronto is rife with mismanagement. However, both the province and Feds have Toronto in a stranglehold.
So what happens if the city does go bankrupt? Parks and Recreational facilities get shut down or neglected, so do social programs. Studies have linked these factors to an increase in crime.
Fire/EMS/Police services have to tighten thiers belts, which means more crime and more people who cannot get the help they need.
Roadworks and infastructure maintainance are scaled back, roads fall apart, water mains break, the lights go out....garbage collection in public spaces will be curtailed so there is more litter laying in the streets and parks. What happens when you add this to our increased crime rate? People stop coming to visit, so say goodbye to tourism dollars. People move out of the city and businesses close, so there go property values. Now, with the city losing so much money from taxes and tourism they still have to have some incoming revenue so they hike minicipal taxes, a right afforded them by the City of Toronto Act. This discourages more people to come and spend money and even more people move or close up shop...see where this is going?
Now that Toronto is making less money, we still have those transfer payments to make so either we slip farther into the red to pay for all the pretty flowers that get planted on the roads in London and Waterloo, or we stop pumping so much money into the provincial coffers - which has an effect on healthcare, wait times, provincial government services....etc.
This is a situation that can very easily get out of control and TO will de-evolve into 1990's Detroit.
It's time to start managing Toronto like a business and not a money-tree. I'll et sh*t for this, but I would vote Mike Harris in as mayor in a heartbeat. Toronto needs help and GTA sarcasm isn't going to cut it. |
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| DigiNut |
Mike Harris is running for mayor? :conf:
I think it's both Miller's and McWimpy's fault. Miller's running us into the ground, but our wonderful Premier is milking it for all it's worth.
The feds I don't blame. It's way out of their jurisdiction. Even if they wanted to help, anything they try to do is going to get filtered through the provincial government first, and don't expect them to hand it all over to us. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
The feds I don't blame. It's way out of their jurisdiction. Even if they wanted to help, anything they try to do is going to get filtered through the provincial government first, and don't expect them to hand it all over to us. |
Not necessarily.
The feds can by pass provincial govt. If anything, BNA act has been used pretty... flexible in terms of feds stepping over its boundaries.
For example, health care and education both are provincial domain, but the feds have a big part in it nowadays.
So, given the precedent is there, the feds can go directly to the cities if they want to. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Not necessarily.
The feds can by pass provincial govt. If anything, BNA act has been used pretty... flexible in terms of feds stepping over its boundaries.
For example, health care and education both are provincial domain, but the feds have a big part in it nowadays.
So, given the precedent is there, the feds can go directly to the cities if they want to. |
I guess you're right, but I think it could be a conflict of interest since Stephen Harper is from Toronto. If he decides to give money directly to Toronto and bypass the province, people will bricks, like they did with Mike Harris and North Bay (they were probably right about that, too).
Of course it's obvious to anyone who bothers to investigate that Toronto is putting out way more in transfer payments, but logic doesn't factor into politics very much.
I actually wonder how the Toronto Star would react to a decision like that. They'd have to be happy about it, but they can't let Harper score any points... |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I guess you're right, but I think it could be a conflict of interest since Stephen Harper is from Toronto. If he decides to give money directly to Toronto and bypass the province, people will bricks, like they did with Mike Harris and North Bay (they were probably right about that, too).
Of course it's obvious to anyone who bothers to investigate that Toronto is putting out way more in transfer payments, but logic doesn't factor into politics very much.
I actually wonder how the Toronto Star would react to a decision like that. They'd have to be happy about it, but they can't let Harper score any points... |
Actually, it'd make a perfect sense if Harper wanted an one time vote booster and make gains in Toronto for the Conservatives.
Only problem is, if Toronto gets a boost in cash from the feds, then every municipality would want some too. That adds up to a big chunk of change, and if the precedent is there, then it becomes somewhat expected. Which I think is the reason why the federal Libs turned down the group of mayors when they originally lobbied for cash for cities.
Considering that avg joe does recognize that the municipal govts actually do that affects their lives, esp. those with kids that use city rec programs, (even if municipal election turnouts suck) it'd be a murder for anyone to oppose feds giving money to cities. |
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| Ub3rBreaker |
| lol funny kids |
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| zoogla |
| Dr. Das reminds me of another anti-establishment TOTA who we haven't heard from for a while...since right around the time Dr. Das started posting...wait a sec...:eek: :p |
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| Matt |
I'd actually say Mike Harris is a huge cause of what's going on now. Remember when we voted 70%+ against the Megacity? Well this is why. The costs of the new Megacity has been greatly outpacing the revenue, and that, combined with the downloading of responsibilities has caused to hit the fan.
Like I said, it wouldn't matter who is in the Mayor's office... a) would be hitting the fan anyways, or (b) the widespread service cuts that are expected would have already taken place and we'd be pissed anyway. |
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