after last night, where he made some fairly extraordinary comments :D
1) that the US provoked 9/11
2) that he would do away with the Homeland Security administration
:clown:
not that I don't agree with him - I actually do! - but he probably scared away 99% of Republican voters :D
kush paintings
Weren't the viewers also most impressed with him at last night's broadcast too (in the viewer poll)?
Krypton
quote:
Originally posted by HardTranceProd
Ron Paul chances: ZERO
after last night, where he made some fairly extraordinary comments :D
1) that the US provoked 9/11
2) that he would do away with the Homeland Security administration
:clown:
not that I don't agree with him - I actually do! - but he probably scared away 99% of Republican voters :D
Yep, I honestly liked Ron Paul up until when we were blamed for 9/11.
Capitalizt
Paul did not blame us for 9-11. The American people certainly aren't responsible. All he did was quote what the CIA has said many times regarding "blowback", and said US military policy over the past 50 years did much to create the resentment and hatred of us in the middle east. He said we should understand terrorist intentions rather than blindly calling them "evil" and using that as a reason to expand our military presence there even further.
Look at it this way: If you get stung by a bee, do you run around blindly trying to swat down every beehive with your bare hands (with Normandy-esque invasions of Iraq, etc)...or is it wise to study it, and ask why and how the f*ck it got in your living room in the first place?
Al-Queda needs to be infiltrated and destroyed from within...with intelligence and counter terror operations, not with WW2 style invasions of 200,000+ soldiers. Of course this can't be argued well in a 30 second soundbyte, so Paul came off sounding weak in that exchange.
kush paintings
Really? How are we not at least partly responsible for what happened? Or are you one of these guys who like to pretend it was a cheap shot out of nowhere?
Capitalizt
Paul gave Bin Laden's reasons for attacking us, and Giuliani mistook that as a justification. Paul was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT when he attributed past US actions to Bin Laden's declaring war on us. Here is all the proof you need: full text of Bin Laden's declaration of war against the United States
In it, he cites (1) US Involvement in the Middle East, (2) Palestine, and (3) Sanctions on Iraq as reasons why he has declared war.
jonSun
quote:
Originally posted by HardTranceProd
Ron Paul chances: ZERO
after last night, where he made some fairly extraordinary comments :D
1) that the US provoked 9/11
2) that he would do away with the Homeland Security administration
:clown:
not that I don't agree with him - I actually do! - but he probably scared away 99% of Republican voters :D
I feel the same way. His chances are zero but he was kinda right in what he said.
The Fox News tools are all over this one. The best part is how fox spins what he said of from our decades of bombing/involvement in the mid east spurred terrorism to Ron Paul is a 9/11 conspiracy freak saying the government was the main culprit as in commiting the attacks.
Q5echo
LazFX
quote:
Ron Paul Said It
by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.
by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.
DIGG THIS
Plenty of reasonable people can disagree about foreign policy. What's really strange is when one reasonable position is completely and forcibly excluded from the public debate.
Such was the case after 9-11. Every close observer of the events of those days knows full well that these crimes were acts of revenge for US policy in the Muslim world. The CIA and the 911 Commission said as much, the terrorists themselves proclaimed it, and Osama underscored the point by naming three issues in particular: US troops in Saudi Arabia, US sanctions against Iraq, and US funding of Israeli expansionism.
So far as I know, Ron Paul is the only prominent public figure in the six years since who has given an honest telling of this truth. The explosive exchange occurred during the Republican Presidential debate in South Carolina.
Ron was asked if he really wants the troops to come home, and whether that is really a Republican position.
"Well," he said, "I think the party has lost its way, because the conservative wing of the Republican Party always advocated a noninterventionist foreign policy. Senator Robert Taft didn't even want to be in NATO. George Bush won the election in the year 2000 campaigning on a humble foreign policy – no nation-building, no policing of the world. Republicans were elected to end the Korean War. The Republicans were elected to end the Vietnam War. There's a strong tradition of being anti-war in the Republican party. It is the constitutional position. It is the advice of the Founders to follow a non-interventionist foreign policy, stay out of entangling alliances, be friends with countries, negotiate and talk with them and trade with them."
He was then asked if 9-11 changed anything. He responded that US foreign policy was a "major contributing factor. Have you ever read the reasons they attacked us? They attacked us because we've been over there; we've been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We've been in the Middle East – I think Reagan was right. We don't understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics. So right now we're building an embassy in Iraq that's bigger than the Vatican. We're building 14 permanent bases. What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? We would be objecting. We need to look at what we do from the perspective of what would happen if somebody else did it to us. "
And then out of the blue, he was asked whether we invited the attacks.
"I'm suggesting that we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason they did it, and they are delighted that we're over there because Osama bin Laden has said, 'I am glad you're over on our sand because we can target you so much easier.' They have already now since that time – have killed 3,400 of our men, and I don't think it was necessary."
Then the very archetype of the State Enforcer popped up to shout him down.
"That's really an extraordinary statement," said Rudy Giuliani. "That's an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of September 11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don't think I've heard that before, and I've heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11th."
Now, this is interesting because it is obvious that Ron never said that we invited the attacks. This was a lie. He said the US foreign policy was a "contributing factor" in why they attacked us, a fact which only a fool or a liar could deny. Giuliani then went on to say that he has never "heard that before" – a statement that testifies to the extent of the blackout on this question.
Ron Paul was invited to respond, and concluded as follows:
"I believe very sincerely that the CIA is correct when they teach and talk about blowback. When we went into Iran in 1953 and installed the shah, yes, there was blowback. A reaction to that was the taking of our hostages and that persists. And if we ignore that, we ignore that at our own risk. If we think that we can do what we want around the world and not incite hatred, then we have a problem. They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there. I mean, what would we think if we were – if other foreign countries were doing that to us?"
Wow, he broke the great taboo in American political life! Why this should be a taboo at all is unclear, but there it is. But now that it is finally out in the open, this shocking theory that the terrorists were not merely freedom-hating madmen but perhaps had some actual motive for their crime, let's think a bit more about it.
It is a normal part of human experience that if you occupy, meddle, bully, and coerce, people who are affected by it all are going to get angry. You don't have to be Muslim to get the point. The problem is that most of the American people simply have no idea what has been happening in the last ten years. Most Americans think that America the country is much like their own neighborhood: peaceful, happy, hard-working, law-abiding. So when you tell people that the US is actually something completely different, they are shocked.
Why would anyone hate us? The problem is that the military wing of the US government is very different from your neighborhood. After the Soviet Union crashed, US elites declared themselves masters of the universe, the only "indispensable nation" and the like. All countries must ask the US for permission to have a nuclear program. If we don't like your government, we can overthrow it. Meanwhile, we sought a global empire unlike any in history: not just a sphere of interest but the entire world. Laurence Vance has the details but here is the bottom line: one-third of a million deployed troops in 134 countries in 1000 locations in foreign countries.
All during the 1990s, the US attempted to starve the population of Iraq, with the result of hundreds of thousands of deaths. Madeleine Albright said on national television that the deaths of 500,000 children (the UN's number) was "worth it" in order to achieve our aims, which were ostensibly the elimination of non-existent, non-US built weapons of mass destruction. Yes, that annoyed a few people. There were constant bombings in Iraq all these years. And let us not forget how all this nonsense began: the first war in 1991 was waged in retaliation for a US-approved Iraqi invasion of its former province, Kuwait. Saddam had good reason to think that the US ambassador was telling the truth about non-interference with Kuwait relations: Saddam was our ally all through the Iran-Iraq war and before.
Ron spoke about complications of the Middle East. One of them is that the enemy we are now fighting, the Islamic extremists, are the very group that we supported and subsidized all through the 1980s in the name of fighting Communism. That's the reason the US knows so much about their bunkers and hiding spots in Afghanistan: US tax dollars created them.
Now, I know this is a lot for the tender ears of Americans to take, who like to think that their government reflects their own values of faith, freedom, and friendliness. But here is the point that libertarians have been trying to hammer home for many years: the US government is the enemy of the American people and their values. It is not peaceful, it is not friendly, it is not motivated by the Christian faith but rather power and imperial lust.
Ron is such a wonderful person that I'm sorry that he had to be the one to tell the truth. One could sense in the debate that he was making an enormous sacrifice here. After Giuliani spoke, the red-state fascists in the audience all started whooping up the bloodlust that the politicians have been encouraging for the last six years – a mindless display of Nazi-like nationalism that would cause the founding fathers to shudder with fear of what we've become. These people are frantic about terrorism and extremism abroad, but they need to take a good hard look in the mirror.
Thank you, Ron, for doing this. We are all in your debt
Originally posted by jonSun
I feel the same way. His chances are zero but he was kinda right in what he said.
The Fox News tools are all over this one. The best part is how fox spins what he said of from our decades of bombing/involvement in the mid east spurred terrorism to Ron Paul is a 9/11 conspiracy freak saying the government was the main culprit as in commiting the attacks.
FOX is such blatant propaganda it isn't even funny. It's kind of hard not to notice that the peice was loaded with nothing but ad-hominems and character attacks on Ron Paul. Notice their usage of terms like "tinfoilers," "cesspools," and other unprofessional garbage. Too many to mention. It's ing unreal how full of FOX is. They even suggested he should be even allowed to run as a Republican candidate, how democratic. Then ofcourse, they called the skeptics of the official 9-11 goverment approved version of events "crazy democrats" or something. LOL, that's the most ing hillarious thing I've heard. Most of the "9-11 tinfoil truthers" I've met are hardcore conservatives and libertarians, not freaking "democrats" lol.
shaolin_Z
quote:
Originally posted by HardTranceProd
Ron Paul chances: ZERO
after last night, where he made some fairly extraordinary comments :D
1) that the US provoked 9/11
2) that he would do away with the Homeland Security administration
:clown:
not that I don't agree with him - I actually do! - but he probably scared away 99% of Republican voters :D
[non-confrontational tone]
Dude, Americans aren't that f'n stupid regardless of you think.
[/non-confrontational tone]
Capitalizt
To: Republican National Committee
Date May 11, 2007
To the Republican National Committee,
WHEREAS, Michigan party chairman Saul Anuzis has announced a petition of Republican National Committee members asking the Republican National Committee to bar Congressman Ron Paul from future debates due to Congressman Paul’s comments in the second Republican presidential debate that Mr. Anuzis characterizes as "off the wall and out of whack";
WHEREAS, the terrorist motivation comments made by Congressman Paul are, at minimum, supported by the following:
The 911 Commission Report: During the 9/11 Commission hearings, Vice Chair Lee Hamilton asked, "What motivated them to do it?" FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States." 9/11 Commission testimony June 16, 2004
One of the countless expert CIA statements: Former CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief Michael Scheuer has bluntly stated, "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people. We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live." Lou Dobbs CNN
Osama Bin Laden statement: In response to President George W. Bush’s statement in an Address to a Joint Session of Congress and to the American People, "They hate ... a democratically elected government. ... They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other,”
Bin Laden in a video response stated, "The White House (is) hiding the truth ... the reality is that we are striking them because of their evil and injustice in the whole of the Islamic World, especially in Iraq and Palestine and their occupation of the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries (Arabian Peninsula)."
WHEREAS, Congressman Paul’s statements concerning the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Education spoke to Congressman Paul’s position of reforming and streamlining both organizations to make them more efficient while lessening the expense burden on the U.S. taxpayer – a true conservative Republican position;
WHEREAS, Congressman Paul represents traditional, conservative republican values more so than any Republican candidate;
WHEREAS, the Republican party is losing membership to other parties due to the abandonment of the traditional, conservative republican platform;
WHEREAS, registered Republican voters and American citizens desire to hear Congressman Paul’s message on these issues and others in his bid for president;
BE IT DECLARED, that the undersigned request the Republican National Committee to support fair election procedures, as well as the views and desires of its members and American citizens, by allowing Congressman Ron Paul full participation in all future debates and election events as a Republican National Committee candidate.
