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Man Iraq is awesome (pg. 9)
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View this Thread in Original format
| Clovis |
| It's kind of sad that CNN has to post pictures of 1 kid who got burned to elicit help from it's audience. Thousands of Iraqi children have worse fates, in run-down orphanages and hospitals or broken homes, and they will probably never see any help from us... |
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| Cipha Sounds |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
Ocal, you goofy looking bastard, talking about how other people look doesnt work when you look like this
walleyed . |
:haha: |
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| Epicurus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
only you would take a post riddled with stunning hypocrisy about making assumptions about other people thats poorly worded and loosely associated and think its an amazing triumph of english. |
So not only can you not read and are ignorant, but you're delusional as well. Or perhaps the concept of making assumptions about other people escapes your brilliant mind. I never made any assumptions about you. I made claims about you, backed with evidence that, ironically, you provided me with.
1-) When I made a claim about you not being able to read, I provided evidence in the form of a quotation from the text you provided everyone with, which clearly contradicted your claim.
2-) When I made a claim about your ignorance about Iraqi culture, I based that on your statements about said culture. Specifically:
a-) Your insinuation that burning children is somehow part of the culture, which is absolutely ludicrous by default, unless you can provide me and others with evidence to back this up.
b-) Your comments about "a culture that believes and practices rape and stoning on a regular basis" are equally ludicrous. If the word 'culture' is understood as the set of customs, traditions and values widely accepted and espoused by a specific group, then what you're saying is that rape and stoning are widely accepted customs/traditions in Iraqi culture. I would love for you to provide me with objective evidence backing up such claims, which would prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that rape and stoning are widely accepted practices in Iraqi culture.
The fact that rape and stoning do occur in Iraq in now way shape or form lends credence to such a claim, as they may occur but be disapproved by society at large, which would thus not make them part of Iraqi culture. Take for instance, the case of rape/physical assault on women in the United States. One out of four women are raped/physically assaulted in the United States at some point in time in their lives (click here). Does that mean that rape is part of American culture? Clearly not.
You'll have a difficult time proving that stoning even occurs on a regular basis in Iraq, let alone that it's a widely accepted practice, because data is scarce. Having said that, we know that it does happen, as some individual cases of stoning have been documented, but there is no evidence whatsoever that points to it being widely practiced in Iraq, let alone accepted. But once again, if you have objective evidence that nobody else has, then perhaps you'll be so kind to provide it.
Furthermore, the fact that stoning is enshrined in some versions of Sharia law helps you in no way, unless you can demonstrate that Sharia law is the law of the land in Iraq, that the version of Sharia law that is enshrined (if it is) in Iraq is indeed a version that allows for stoning, and finally and most importantly, that the law reflects the culture of the land. The latter point is crucial, as it is clearly possible for a law that is encoded in some legal system to be unrepresentative of the culture, because, for instance, the group responsible for enshrining that law in the legal system is tyrannical, dictatorial or coercive, and wishes to impose upon the population their version of morality.
Even if I grant you the first two points, based on the potential approval of Article 14 in the working draft of new Iraq constitution that would replace a whole body of secular law dealing with issues of marriage, divorce, inheritance (etc) by Sharia law (which is in no way a certititude), you would still have to show how an Article in a puppet constitution, drafted by puppet leaders who are approved by an occupying power (the United States) germanely reflects part of Iraqi culture.
Now, having demonstrated to you that I made no assumptions whatsoever about you, but only made claims based on evidence that you provided me with, I ask you, where is the hypocrisy?
| quote: | Originally posted by glass
So your saying its not common for a father to kill his daughter if she has sex with a man she isn't married too? |
That's precisely what I'm saying. Statistics on "honour killings" are hard to come by, although we do have anecdotal evidence that there has been an increase in honour killings since the US invasion created lawlesness in Iraq, which allows criminals and murderers to escape justice. However, even under such extraordinary circumstances of chaos, our best estimates indicate that the number of women that were victims of honour killings are in the hundreds (click here). The population of Iraq is 27 500 000, roughly half of which are women (so 13 750 000). If we assume a very conservative number (10%) of women who commit "crimes" such as adultery, having sex outside of wedlock, loving a man of the wrong religion (etc) that may potentially lead to "honour killings", then by that estimate, hundreds out of over a million women are "honour killed". I would say that's hardly common at all.
Having said that, there is no question that hundreds of honour killings are hundreds too many, so I sincerely hope that we see an end to this in the near rather than distant future.
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
your even more ignorant on how women are treated there. my buddy is from iran and JUST got back from there a bit over a month or so ago. women in the middle east are lower than dirt unless she has money. then she can just pay the s off and be fine. thats a rarity in that country. |
I know it's difficult for your little brain to distinguish between Iran and Iraq, but believe me, they are two different countries. The fact that they share three out of four letters and a border does not make them identical. They have radically different histories that span thousands of years, different languages (arabic versus farsi), and a mix of different ethnicities that have shaped their respective cultures. So the fact that your buddy just came back from Iran or is Iranian has nothing to do with Iraq, even if anecdotal evidence of one person were sufficient to establish an objective case for anything (which it clearly isn't). So do me a favour, and sit in the corner.
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
I took a course on how women are treated in the mid east as part of my international law courses I was going through in university. Thats why I didnt really pay attention to him. That and we have lots of friends from iran specifically and they tell us about all the fun quirks of the society.
its very idealistic to think "things arent THAT bad" when in reality theyre probably far worse. |
You want a cookie? The fact that you took a course in a subject means nothing, except that you took a course in a subject. It does not mean that you learned anything in the course, and even if you did learn something, it does not mean that you learned anything that is correct. Judging from your reponses in this thread, you clearly didn't learn much, let alone anything worthy of being called knowledge.
As for your Iranian friends, that's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. See post above.
| quote: | Originally posted by Provocative_boi
I dont know where you guys get your facts from? stop watching CNN research yourself sometimes. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
you ever read the Koran? |
So you get your facts about Iraqi culture from the Koran? So burning children and stoning are widely accepted practices of Iraqi culture because the Koran says so? I challenge you to find me ONE passage in the Koran than condones burning children, or stoning for any punishment.
With regards to stoning, if you're talking about the Hadith (a series of oral traditions that go over Muhammad's life and deeds), which contains some passages that can be interpreted as condoning the act of death by stoning, then that has nothing to do with the Koran. Most Islamic sholars are in agreement that contradictions between the Koran and the Hadith are to be settled in favour of the Koran, because the latter is the word of God, and is thus infallible. Although some fundamentalist elements in Islam have disagreed with this ruling, and have thus incorporated stoning into their version of Sharia law (see the mullahs of Iran, who have enshrined stoning in Article 83 of their penal code, and certain area of Nigeria as well), this is most certainly not widely accepted. But maybe you have esoteric knowledge that most Islamic scholars don't have, or maybe you'd like to argue alongside the mullahs of Iran that stoning is indeed Islamic, because after all, you took a course on women in the Middle East, and are thus knowledgeable about said subject.
The most ironic part of this entire discussion is that I'm atheist and I sincerely believe that Iraq and the Arab world in general need to seriously reform many aspects of their societies, especially their treatment of women. The latter point, in fact, extends not only to Iraq or the Middle East, but to the Western world as well. Violence and discrimination against women in the West is healthy and kicking (click here once again). Thus, for me to sit here and argue from the perspective that I have simply demonstrates how ignorant and outlandish your statements are. On that note, I've wasted enough time replying to your nonsense. Enjoy your thread and your night. I'm out for good on this one. |
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| Orbax |
edit:
im going to bed i have work in the morning. If im bored ill read that. from the first sentence of each paragraph I can tell youre an idiot. I re-edit this to say im not going to read that.
have fun being bitter |
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| Spike |
| RACE WAR!!! RACE WAR!!!! ITS ON NOW! |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
edit:
im going to bed i have work in the morning. If im bored ill read that. from the first sentence of each paragraph I can tell youre an idiot. I re-edit this to say im not going to read that.
have fun being bitter |
I read his whole post, and it looks like you got served.
Really though, at least he backs his up. |
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| Provocative_boi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
I read his whole post, and it looks like you got served.
Really though, at least he backs his up. |
+1
Epicurus-That was a really good post.
Never thought COR could be this serious LOL impressive. |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | Originally posted by Provocative_boi
+1
Epicurus-That was a really good post.
Never thought COR could be this serious LOL impressive. |
haha, seriously. I miss topics like this in the c0r.
Clovis, I gotta say that I loved every one of your posts here and have many of the same views on this whole situation. What books have you read on these topics? |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
from the first sentence of each paragraph I can tell youre an idiot. |
Is that how you read the Koran, too? |
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| Omega_M |
| quote: | Originally posted by Epicurus
So not only can you not read and are ignorant, but you're delusional as well. Or perhaps the concept of making assumptions about other people escapes your brilliant mind. I never made any assumptions about you. I made claims about you, backed with evidence that, ironically, you provided me with.
1-) When I made a claim about you not being able to read, I provided evidence in the form of a quotation from the text you provided everyone with, which clearly contradicted your claim.
2-) When I made a claim about your ignorance about Iraqi culture, I based that on your statements about said culture. Specifically:
a-) Your insinuation that burning children is somehow part of the culture, which is absolutely ludicrous by default, unless you can provide me and others with evidence to back this up.
b-) Your comments about "a culture that believes and practices rape and stoning on a regular basis" are equally ludicrous. If the word 'culture' is understood as the set of customs, traditions and values widely accepted and espoused by a specific group, then what you're saying is that rape and stoning are widely accepted customs/traditions in Iraqi culture. I would love for you to provide me with objective evidence backing up such claims, which would prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that rape and stoning are widely accepted practices in Iraqi culture.
The fact that rape and stoning do occur in Iraq in now way shape or form lends credence to such a claim, as they may occur but be disapproved by society at large, which would thus not make them part of Iraqi culture. Take for instance, the case of rape/physical assault on women in the United States. One out of four women are raped/physically assaulted in the United States at some point in time in their lives (click here). Does that mean that rape is part of American culture? Clearly not.
You'll have a difficult time proving that stoning even occurs on a regular basis in Iraq, let alone that it's a widely accepted practice, because data is scarce. Having said that, we know that it does happen, as some individual cases of stoning have been documented, but there is no evidence whatsoever that points to it being widely practiced in Iraq, let alone accepted. But once again, if you have objective evidence that nobody else has, then perhaps you'll be so kind to provide it.
Furthermore, the fact that stoning is enshrined in some versions of Sharia law helps you in no way, unless you can demonstrate that Sharia law is the law of the land in Iraq, that the version of Sharia law that is enshrined (if it is) in Iraq is indeed a version that allows for stoning, and finally and most importantly, that the law reflects the culture of the land. The latter point is crucial, as it is clearly possible for a law that is encoded in some legal system to be unrepresentative of the culture, because, for instance, the group responsible for enshrining that law in the legal system is tyrannical, dictatorial or coercive, and wishes to impose upon the population their version of morality.
Even if I grant you the first two points, based on the potential approval of Article 14 in the working draft of new Iraq constitution that would replace a whole body of secular law dealing with issues of marriage, divorce, inheritance (etc) by Sharia law (which is in no way a certititude), you would still have to show how an Article in a puppet constitution, drafted by puppet leaders who are approved by an occupying power (the United States) germanely reflects part of Iraqi culture.
Now, having demonstrated to you that I made no assumptions whatsoever about you, but only made claims based on evidence that you provided me with, I ask you, where is the hypocrisy?
That's precisely what I'm saying. Statistics on "honour killings" are hard to come by, although we do have anecdotal evidence that there has been an increase in honour killings since the US invasion created lawlesness in Iraq, which allows criminals and murderers to escape justice. However, even under such extraordinary circumstances of chaos, our best estimates indicate that the number of women that were victims of honour killings are in the hundreds (click here). The population of Iraq is 27 500 000, roughly half of which are women (so 13 750 000). If we assume a very conservative number (10%) of women who commit "crimes" such as adultery, having sex outside of wedlock, loving a man of the wrong religion (etc) that may potentially lead to "honour killings", then by that estimate, hundreds out of over a million women are "honour killed". I would say that's hardly common at all.
Having said that, there is no question that hundreds of honour killings are hundreds too many, so I sincerely hope that we see an end to this in the near rather than distant future.
I know it's difficult for your little brain to distinguish between Iran and Iraq, but believe me, they are two different countries. The fact that they share three out of four letters and a border does not make them identical. They have radically different histories that span thousands of years, different languages (arabic versus farsi), and a mix of different ethnicities that have shaped their respective cultures. So the fact that your buddy just came back from Iran or is Iranian has nothing to do with Iraq, even if anecdotal evidence of one person were sufficient to establish an objective case for anything (which it clearly isn't). So do me a favour, and sit in the corner.
You want a cookie? The fact that you took a course in a subject means nothing, except that you took a course in a subject. It does not mean that you learned anything in the course, and even if you did learn something, it does not mean that you learned anything that is correct. Judging from your reponses in this thread, you clearly didn't learn much, let alone anything worthy of being called knowledge.
As for your Iranian friends, that's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. See post above.
So you get your facts about Iraqi culture from the Koran? So burning children and stoning are widely accepted practices of Iraqi culture because the Koran says so? I challenge you to find me ONE passage in the Koran than condones burning children, or stoning for any punishment.
With regards to stoning, if you're talking about the Hadith (a series of oral traditions that go over Muhammad's life and deeds), which contains some passages that can be interpreted as condoning the act of death by stoning, then that has nothing to do with the Koran. Most Islamic sholars are in agreement that contradictions between the Koran and the Hadith are to be settled in favour of the Koran, because the latter is the word of God, and is thus infallible. Although some fundamentalist elements in Islam have disagreed with this ruling, and have thus incorporated stoning into their version of Sharia law (see the mullahs of Iran, who have enshrined stoning in Article 83 of their penal code, and certain area of Nigeria as well), this is most certainly not widely accepted. But maybe you have esoteric knowledge that most Islamic scholars don't have, or maybe you'd like to argue alongside the mullahs of Iran that stoning is indeed Islamic, because after all, you took a course on women in the Middle East, and are thus knowledgeable about said subject.
The most ironic part of this entire discussion is that I'm atheist and I sincerely believe that Iraq and the Arab world in general need to seriously reform many aspects of their societies, especially their treatment of women. The latter point, in fact, extends not only to Iraq or the Middle East, but to the Western world as well. Violence and discrimination against women in the West is healthy and kicking (click here once again). Thus, for me to sit here and argue from the perspective that I have simply demonstrates how ignorant and outlandish your statements are. On that note, I've wasted enough time replying to your nonsense. Enjoy your thread and your night. I'm out for good on this one. |
COR VERSION PLZ :crazy: |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_M
COR VERSION PLZ :crazy: |
This pretty well sums it all up:
| quote: | Originally posted by Epicurus
You want a cookie? The fact that you took a course in a subject means nothing, except that you took a course in a subject. It does not mean that you learned anything in the course, and even if you did learn something, it does not mean that you learned anything that is correct. Judging from your reponses in this thread, you clearly didn't learn much, let alone anything worthy of being called knowledge. |
Though I do sincerely hope that Orbax's comments were meant primarily to stir up . It would seriously disappoint me to find out that someone actually capable of forming a coherent sentence truly believes that there is any sort of culture out there without at least some merit. |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_M
COR VERSION PLZ :crazy: |
that. Read the whole post. Definitely worth it. |
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