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Bioshock (pg. 3)
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| inconspicuous |
because video games aren't an artform in the same regard, imo. They serve the sole purpose of entertaining, and a great game is a game that's a lot of fun to play, which may or may not be considered advanced or visually stunning or even innovative. Unlike other forms of media, games aren't meant to be simply appreciated, so there are far more important aspects to design than those upon which some people tend to dwell.
Again, though, this also comes back to the multi-player vs. single-player preference, since one is affected by popularity and the other is not. Even the most amazing multi-player design is worthless if only 10 other people like it.
As for Madden, you're right to some extent, because even when they didn't have 'exclusivity,' there still wasn't anybody putting the same kind of money into that type of game, but they've gotten more complacent with the last few, now that nobody else can even keep them on their feet, let alone toes. [ok, that was bad] |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by inconspicuous
because video games aren't an artform in the same regard, imo. |
Well we probably may as well stop this discussion there then because we fundamentally disagree on that issue, however, against my better judgment I'm going to try and push this a little further...
| quote: | Originally posted by inconspicuous
They serve the sole purpose of entertaining, and a great game is a game that's a lot of fun to play, which may or may not be considered advanced or visually stunning or even innovative. Unlike other forms of media, games aren't meant to be simply appreciated, so there are far more important aspects to design than those upon which some people tend to dwell.
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If you've read any of my rants on here before, you know that visual and technological advances me little to nothing to me. Solid gameplay mechanics and anything that engages the player in the subject matter are, to me, analogous to writing style and flow for an author. I do think that they are meant at their most base level to simply be appreciated on their own merits, not how well they clone popular and established gameplay mechanics.
Innovation is another issue unto itself, because without it we'd all still be playing Pong. The industry necessitates innovation, even when it seems to be stagnating (i.e. even now we see glimpses of innovative gameplay, albeit not much).
And insofar as Madden is concerned, no one for over a decade has been able to compete with EA on anything. They're the Wal-Mart of gaming, and they will crush your ing soul if you even try to with them. :p |
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| inconspicuous |
Well, tbh, I'm a bit confused by that response. If the "visual and technological advances" aren't what you consider to be the artistic elements, that leaves the actual gameplay, which I have a hard time seeing as an artform at all. I can at least understand why some people consider some of the other elements to be artistic expressions, but the gameplay?
Plenty of people still do play older games. No, Pong isn't usually one of them, but plenty of people are still playing Mario Kart, Halo, Goldeneye, Smash Bros., etc. If people still enjoy those, is it a worse crime to rehash proven successes or to put out a failed attempt at innovative gameplay? To be perfectly honest, I'd rather have an updated version of a great game than something new that just doesn't work. Granted, they're not mutually exclusive, and stuff like Shadow of the Colossus & Katamari will come around once in a while, but if there were only 5-10 games coming out each year, that would be another problem entirely.
[I started to go into an EA discussion, but it was already getting absurdly long. Perhaps another time.
edit: I just mentioned that you threw Wal-Mart in there...yeah, definitely another time.] |
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| RJT |
To be honest, it's probably not even worth it because it's very clear from your response that you and I disagree at the most base of levels in this discussion.
What you see as a commodity, I see as art, and nothing either of us is going to say is going to convince the other to abandon their view.
Further, I don't think you and I share the same view of what it is to "innovate." |
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| inconspicuous |
we're not really that far apart, aside from the single/multi-player preferences. We both care more about gameplay than anything else, but what makes good single-player gameplay doesn't take the same direction or investment as is required to produce an enjoyable multi-player experience.
Yes, I do see everything from a financial perspective, because everything is a commodity. Art is no exception. Without money, every cause fails, regardless of the objective or product. Likewise, more money, all else the same, is always beneficial. |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by inconspicuous
we're not really that far apart, aside from the single/multi-player preferences. We both care more about gameplay than anything else, but what makes good single-player gameplay doesn't take the same direction or investment as is required to produce an enjoyable multi-player experience.
Yes, I do see everything from a financial perspective, because everything is a commodity. Art is no exception. Without money, every cause fails, regardless of the objective or product. Likewise, more money, all else the same, is always beneficial. |
It's a fine line though, and it seems that far too frequently in recent years my expectations and what developers are providing are falling on different sides of the fence.
This push to make everything multiplayer and the immense maintenance costs you cite for a successful game of this ilk only proceed to eliminate a diversity of developers from existing. With fewer and fewer studios developing, we're stuck with the same companies putting up money for games, and thus only their priorities, and the priorities of their customers, are met. |
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| inconspicuous |
Well, I'd have to actually look at the numbers to go from here, but the main thing with maintaining games is that the spending is all reactionary, so, the ones that end up costing more are also the ones selling more initially, meaning that the developers have more money to work with. If a game fails, they're not stuck with those costs. Whereas, with a major single-player game, it's a huge risk, because whether one person buys it or 10 million people pick it up, it incurs the same cost.
But again, I'd have to actually look at the range of costs for these things to get a real idea about wtf I'm talking about. :) |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by inconspicuous
Well, tbh, I'm a bit confused by that response. If the "visual and technological advances" aren't what you consider to be the artistic elements, that leaves the actual gameplay, which I have a hard time seeing as an artform at all. I can at least understand why some people consider some of the other |
um, art design? music? the story?
games are unique in that they bring together many artistic elements into one product. bioschock is definitely art. the sheer quality of this game and the way in which it seamlessly joins all the elements is a joy to behold. |
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| Spirit5 |
| The Myst series is a prime example of a computer/video game that are truly works of art. |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
. bioschock is definitely art. the sheer quality of this game and the way in which it seamlessly joins all the elements is a joy to behold. |
I agree 100%.
The design of everything...The way the splicers interact with the environment (and each other) is awesome. The sound and visuals are perfect. You really get a sense that the world is crumbling around you. It's just amazing.
Oh, and you can't fully appreciate it until you play it in HD, with headphones, in a DARK room. ;)
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| The Arbiter |
| quote: | | Oh, and you can't fully appreciate it until you play it in HD, with headphones, in a DARK room. |
That's alot of cash to speand just to make a game seem like it's worth playing. I really can't what you all see in this game?
Maybe it's just not me thing at all. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Arbiter
That's alot of cash to speand just to make a game seem like it's worth playing. |
not if you have it already ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by The Arbiter
I really can't what you all see in this game? |
its deus ex meets doom 3 but better than both. |
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