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if u were god.. (pg. 2)
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by mezzir
not what you guys are talking about, but i found it interesting (excerpt from above wiki link)
woah |
Note the phrase "animal life" and, at least for me, that position becomes a lot less interesting. |
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| idoru |
I've posed the following question to a few people of faith whenever we've had a discussion about our beliefs. During the conversation they always revert to, "Well, I just don't see how it's possible for matter to just start from one tiny point and explode into all of this. Where did that matter come from, how did it get here?" To which I respond, "Well, where did God come from?"
The conversation typically ends there and they give me a blank look.
(Sure, that didn't totally pertain to this thread but I've been awake for a few hours and still haven't had my breakfast or tea, so sod off.) |
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| RJT |
| While I generally also revel in those kinds of conversations, it is however no less important to note that at it's most base level, belief in any metaphysical account of existence relies on some sort of foundational presumption about the way things work, and in that sense it seems to me to not be such a large gap between empiricists and theists. |
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| david.michael |
| quote: | Originally posted by idoru
I've posed the following question to a few people of faith whenever we've had a discussion about our beliefs. They always revert to, "Well, I just don't see how it's possible for matter to just start from one tiny point and explode into all of this. Where did that matter come from, how did it get here?" To which I respond, "Well, where did God come from?"
The conversation typically ends there and they give me a blank look.
(Sure, that didn't totally pertain to this thread but I've been awake for a few hours and still haven't had my breakfast or tea, so sod off.) |
My response would be:
An atheist must believe that we exist in our current understanding of science and nature, time and space. A person who believes in a creator can at least believe that God exists outside of our "bubble" of existence since He created it. We only understand existence as it... well, exists, because we are inside of it. One who does not believe in a creator must acknowledge that this is all there is, and matter creating itself defies your very beliefs. One who believes in God can acknowledge that God exists outside of space and time.... he created space and time and put us inside of it. So, something without a beginning or end would be feasible, albiet perhaps incomprehensible.
Or, something to that effect. |
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| RJT |
I think that's a very thoughtful response David, and certainly in no way invalid, but it does imply a highly dualistic conception of reality (most theistic views require dualism) which in turn begs the question of connection between the material and "other" (nonphysical, whatever you choose to call it) worlds, as it would seem that there needs to some kind of way for one to affect the other.
In a situation like this you're essentially arguing pure blind faith, which is fine (and in fact a virtuous trait in many societies), but it does allow for a significant amount of empirical evidence in favor of materialism to enter the argument, none of which can be directly refuted by pure deism. |
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| mezzir |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
Note the phrase "animal life" and, at least for me, that position becomes a lot less interesting. |
Huh. I took that to include humans; I assumed it was phrased that way so as to not exclude deities that are not human, a bull god for instance or something. |
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| david.michael |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
I think that's a very thoughtful response David, and certainly in no way invalid, but it does imply a highly dualistic conception of reality (most theistic views require dualism) which in turn begs the question of connection between the material and "other" (nonphysical, whatever you choose to call it) worlds, as it would seem that there needs to some kind of way for one to affect the other.
In a situation like this you're essentially arguing pure blind faith, which is fine (and in fact a virtuous trait in many societies), but it does allow for a significant amount of empirical evidence in favor of materialism to enter the argument, none of which can be directly refuted by pure deism. |
Blind faith is definitely and admittedly implied. It's somewhat a prerequisite to this way of thinking. In option A (atheism), you have matter which created itself... a paradoxical impossibility. In option B (theism/deism/creationism), you have matter which was created by something that always was, outside of our understanding of time. Honestly, either one requires some blind faith. |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by mezzir
Huh. I took that to include humans; I assumed it was phrased that way so as to not exclude deities that are not human, a bull god for instance or something. |
What it means is essentially that God himself (any God), supposedly, can not affect logical contradictions in the physical universe that we experience, and further implies that a deity would be bound by the same logical truths that we have come to know.
I think this works well for materialism metaphysicians who would like to combine established science with deism, but it doesn't hold up particularly well once any kind of dualism is created, as once God is relegated to a realm outside the physical, the "rules," as it were, are thrown out the window. |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by david.michael
Honestly, either one requires some blind faith. |
I don't know how many times I've posted the exact same thing on these forums, so it makes me very happy to see someone else say it too.
:)
Tolerance is fun. |
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| idoru |
| quote: | Originally posted by david.michael
Blind faith is definitely and admittedly implied. It's somewhat a prerequisite to this way of thinking. In option A (atheism), you have matter which created itself... a paradoxical impossibility. In option B (theism/deism/creationism), you have matter which was created by something that always was, outside of our understanding of time. Honestly, either one requires some blind faith. |
Very true.  |
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| david.michael |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
I don't know how many times I've posted the exact same thing on these forums, so it makes me very happy to see someone else say it too.
:)
Tolerance is fun. |
Piss off.
:toothless |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by david.michael
Piss off.
:toothless |
Hey, you too Dave! :mad: |
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