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xone 3d or ecler evo 5
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| MACBOOK69 |
| i have a xone 92. i would sell it and get the 3d or the evo 5, the xone mixer is phenominal as you all know already, but i would like to use my laptop less. the xone looks like its layout is more user friendly but that evo sure looks tight. but it looks like you could be fiddaling with the interface alot, whata yall think |
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| miamitranceman |
| I don't think the EVO is out quite yet is it? Not gonna be many reviews on it. Look at the Korg Zero 4 or 8 too. |
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| MACBOOK69 |
| I KNOW BUT THERE IS ALOT OF HYPE AND INFO ON IT. THE KORG LOOKS LIKE IT WOULD BE QUITE FUNCTIONAL BUT IT ALSO LOOKS EXTREMELY CHEAP AS FAR AS QUALITY. WHICH IS A SHAME BECAUSE THEY HAVE VERY NICE SYNTHS |
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| miamitranceman |
| Hmm, well, back to my original post about the EVO then. |
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| discobiscuit |
| i like the evo better than the korg (based on looks, specs, and reviews). the korg is too cluttered and doesnt look appealing to me. havent used either but i have researched both. i'd love to hear some reviews on the evo... |
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| Soundwerks |
| I have an EVO5 (first one in North America)...so I can give you a little review on it. I am biased tho (as the ECLER distributor)but I can give a non-biased or opinionated review on it....just the facts etc if you like. I'll write my review tomorrow when I have a bit more time. So far, its pretty slick! :D |
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| miamitranceman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Soundwerks
I have an EVO5 (first one in North America)...so I can give you a little review on it. I am biased tho (as the ECLER distributor)but I can give a non-biased or opinionated review on it....just the facts etc if you like. I'll write my review tomorrow when I have a bit more time. So far, its pretty slick! :D |
Cool man, that'd be great. |
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| Drake44444 |
The korg zero 4 is great. I love mine and its perfect for what I need.
But there is a reason that evo5 is more expensive. Its better. (and probably without all these bugs the early korgs are showing) |
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| Ryan0751 |
Ack! I had a Xone 92 rotary which I loved, and I purchased a Xone 3D and sold my 92. For me it was a big mistake, and just a few months later I found myself selling the Xone 3D... below is a long post I did shortly after coming to the realization that the 3D wasn't for me.
The thing is, I suspect even the Evo or Korg would be somewhat similar in their limitations, or have new limitations which may not yet be discovered. You already have a GREAT DJ mixer, so you might want to consider just getting a good soundcard and some external midi control like a faderfox.
The Xone 2D also looks promising, as long as you're not trying to mix on it (mixing with the mixer and using the 2D for other things like effects), and maybe one more controller. I was thinking of getting the 2D and using it with my trigger finger.
The thing I've come to realized is it's best to buy components that are good at one thing... the advantage of the 3D and the like is that they ARE all-in-one, but that can also be their disadvantage.
Here's my original post (oh and BTW, I did buy the Rane 2016 and LOVE it):
Background:
I came from mixing with Technics 1200's, CDJ-1000's, and a Xone 92 rotary mixer. I really loved the Xone 92, but was interested in really diving deep into Ableton (while keeping decks, I still love playing on decks).
Since I had such a great experience with my Xone 92, I was at first looking at the Xone 2D and 1D as an addition to my 92. These aren't shipping until November, however, and I was impatient so I decided to really look into the 3D.
I had read all the reviews, I knew the limitations going into it and such, and decided to pull the trigger. If it's good enough for PVD and all those other big name DJ's, little old me should be happy as a clam, right?
First impressions:
Out of the box, the 3D looks and feels like an A+H product. It's actually smaller in person than it looks in the pictures. It's also relatively lightweight, actually weighing less than the Xone 92.
The main faders feel nice and smooth, loose like on the 92 fader version. The MIDI sliders feel comparable to the AUX sliders on the 92 (not quite as nice, but adequate).
I did notice some of the pots like the eq's are plastic stemmed, whereas on the 92 they were metal. Shouldn't be a problem though unless you really beat on it.
The Mixer:
The mixer portion of the 3D is of course based on the 92. It's a bit slimmed down, however. Obviously 3-band EQ instead of 4, no split cue (though the master/cue blend remains), and less options for the FX returns (essentially a volume knob, instead of the fader/eq section the 92 provides).
Overall the mixer portion sounds fantastic. I would say even better than the 92, it just really sings. The filters also sound a bit better... there is much more resonance available, and the sweeps have more of that "weeeee" sound (to be technical).
There is only one LFO, and it's assignable to filter 1, 2 or both.
The Midi Portion:
Looking at a picture of the 3D, the MIDI controls available are pretty obvious. The controls all have a very nice feel to them similar to the rest of the mixer.
The jog wheels feel a little cheap, like the plastic on them is very thin. It's also very difficult to use the 4 way click points on the jog wheel without also turning it, sending mixed MIDI messages.
All of the MIDI controls are fixed to CC messages. You cannot modify them.
The BPM detection isn't very good, but you can tap and such. It jumps around a lot more than on the CDJ's.
The nudge feature and midi clock is pretty cool for mixing from decks to software. It's a little rough (not quite like using pitch bend buttons on a cdj), but it can be done!
The soundcard:
The 3D is of course only USB 1.1, which means the sound card has a little more latency than you would like. I had numerous USB issues with my macbook and audio interfaces, so I really would have preffered Firewire.
You can configure the sound card (using a software utility) to be either 1 stereo-in, 3 stereo-out, or 2 stereo-in, 2 stereo-out.
From there you can also configure "what" the inputs connect to: The main mix out (for recording your mixes), or the FX1 send (for using the sound card as an EFX loop).
The sound card outputs route directly to the mixer channels. Next to the phono/line button on each channel is a button to override that and take input from one of the sound card inputs:
Channel 1 - SC 1/2
Channel 2 - SC 3/4
Channel 3 - SC 5/6
Channel 4 - SC 1/2
Note that channel 4 shares a sound card output with channel 1, due to the limited number of outputs of the sound card. If you have the sound card set to 2 in/2 out, channel 3's 5/6 switch no longer works.
Use with my Mac:
The 3D was plug and play with my Mac, just plugged it in and everything worked (MIDI and Audio), as the 3D is class-compliant. I did not try the unit with windows.
Mapping MIDI in software applications works perfectly, as well as routing audio to the various sound card channels. No surprises there.
Supplied templates:
One nice feature that attracted me to the 3D was the plastic overlays you can use for your applications. The default Ableton template, however, is useless. Anyone with Ableton experience will take one look at it and realize why. It's really just an "example" of some things you can do, but isn't workable at all.
One annoyance is that there is no way to print your own template... they do not provide any "blank template" file, and the size requires paper A3 size or larger. If you were to print one, you would also have to cut out all of the control holes. Would have been nice if they included card stock with the holes punched, and a template file for custom templates.
Use with ableton:
I did try the 3D with Torq (with external control), and of course it worked fine. Other applications should be fine as well. The real reason I bought it, of course, is for Ableton use.
Using the 3D soley for other applications is really a bit of overkill, there's just too much MIDI there. The Traktor templates looked interesting, but I didn't try them.
Back to Ableton...
You really have two methods which you can configure Ableton and how you route audio:
1. Assign the MIDI controls of the 3D to control the faders in Ableton, and add EQ-8's to those channels and assign knobs for those, etc. Essentially using the MIDI portion of the 3D as a DJ mixer. Route the master out of ableton to one channel on the 3D, and the cue/preview out to a second.
2. Route individual audio channels from Ableton directly to the 3D's mixer channels, and mix using the regular audio faders and EQ's. This bypasses mixing in the software.
I first went with trying method 2. I like the ability to see the channel LED's on the mixer, use the gains, I like the main mixer faders better, etc. I also wanted to be able to use the 3D's filters on the Ableton channels.
The problem with method 2 is that due to the limitation of the 3D's sound card, you only have 3 channels to work with. If you dedicate one of those channels to cue/preview, you are left with 2 channels to mix with. That's VERY limiting with Ableton, and really I'd rather just mix with decks in that case. With a 4th channel, you would have "3 deck" capability, which is much more liberating.
I tried to create an aggregate audio device with my Torq Conectiv interface to get an extra channel (you have to do this to use multiple sound cards as a single device in an audio application). It worked, but it was very flaky (audio dropouts, distortion over time) and OS 10.4.10 broke something in aggregate devices so I could not use this anymore.
So I decided to give method 1 a try. Well, the results are less than satisfying. The first issue is fader curves. Using the MIDI faders of the 3D, audio isn't heard very much from the channel until you get near the top 1" of the fader (they are mapped linearly).
So when you are mixing, even a teeny tiny movement of the MIDI fader causes a big jump in sound level. WAY too sensitive. Ableton Live 6 currently provides a way to set the fader curve for the crossfader, but not for the upfaders. There are some third party applications that let you shim in another midi layer to do custom CC mappings (emulating a new fader curve), but that program was Windows only and seemed too fraught with problems.
Another issue was found when mapping the knobs for EQ'ing to EQ-8. On something like the 92, the EQ's are -inf to +6db. Well in Ableton, you can change the range of any MIDI control, but if you set it to -inf to +6, the detent in the MIDI knob (the middle click) is no longer at 0. The +/- values have to be the same for that to work. So that leads to the possibility of way overdriving your signal. I also found these controls to be VERY sensitive.
I also noticed substantial MIDI lag when using this method (MIDI lag, not audio lag). Cut an EQ really fast and it's very apparent.
Mixing in the software provides greater control over how you route the sound, using the return channels, etc. But it also requires you to stare at your laptop to see levels and such.
Mapping mixer controls to the 3D also reveals the poor layout of the controls. There aren't 3 detent knobs above each channel, so I was forced to put my mid EQ control on the right. Also, 8 sliders? I ended up using a template that others are using at abletonlivedj.com, which uses 4 Ableton channels, with controls for those 4 channels mapped all over both side of the 3D. Not impossible to use, but not ideal.
Conclusion
So in the end, I've determined that I, as well as MANY other DJ's who are using Ableton, prefer to mix using a real DJ mixer. In that case, you need a sound card which has lots of channels (which the 3D doesn't provide), connected to your mixer channels.
You then need only enough MIDI control for navigating scenes, triggering clips, and controlling the effects. This also means you can really use ANY DJ mixer you like with Ableton. Something like the DJM-800 looks nice on paper, but in practice the MIDI control is useless.
I COULD buy a better sound card, and not use the 3D's, but that seems ridiculous considering the amount I spent, and I don't have enough inputs available on the mixer for that.
Now I'm thinking of going to something classic, like a Rane 2016, with lots of inputs and just buy a decent sound card and a cheap controller. Still not sure what I'll do at this point.
In the end, this is just another example of an all-in-one device having a number of compromises for it's functions.
| quote: | Originally posted by MACBOOK69
i have a xone 92. i would sell it and get the 3d or the evo 5, the xone mixer is phenominal as you all know already, but i would like to use my laptop less. the xone looks like its layout is more user friendly but that evo sure looks tight. but it looks like you could be fiddaling with the interface alot, whata yall think |
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| Soundwerks |
Heres my little review of the EVO5...I'll try to keep it as factual as possible...but my opinion will be thrown in here and there.
Overall, the mixer is beautiful! Nice aluminum faceplate, chunky knobs, very open and uncluttered layout and the screen is very nice. Full color 3.5 TFT, nice and bright.
The mixer has 5 channels, 4 of which can be switched between PHONO/LINE/FW (firewire). The 5th channel is only MIC.
The ENTIRE mixer is a MIDI control surface...every button, knob, fader....you have 69 physical MIDI controls, and you can have up to 64 MIDI layouts or maps stored in the mixer, for up to 4416 different MIDI commands! :eyespop: More on that later....
The EVO5 is a bit different than its competitors by offering a 12 channel FW soundcard. Thats 6 IN, 6 OUT. What you have is channels 1/2/3/4 are on 1/2 - 3/4 - 5/6 - 7/8 on the soundcard. 9/10 on the soundcard are routed to the master BUS (output) of the mixer, and 11/12 are routed directly to the PFL (headphones). This is VERY cool because this way, you dont have to route any outputs from your PC to any channels on the mixer....you dont have to waste an audio channel to get the audio from your PC...it just comes right into the master BUS/PFL of the mixer! For example, in Ableton, you can use all 5 of the EVO's channels as MIDI controls, and have the audio output from Ableton come right into FW channels 11/12 on the EVO, and have the CUE/PFL from Ableton come into FW channels 10/11 on the EVO. This leaves all 5 channels
The FW soundcard also allows you to route any of the channels to an output on the FW card. For instance, you can have a standard turntable on channel 1 PHONO, route it to FW output channels 1/2 to Ableton, use Ableton as your FX processor, and run back to channels 1/2 on the FW card! No extra wiring needed...it all goes thru the card! :D
The EVO5 is also Traktor Scratch Certified. What this means is that you can use Traktor Scratch, but you dont need the AUDIO 8 soundcard. You simply plug in your decks to the EVO. The EVO will send the timecode signal from the input to Traktor Scratch via FW. Traktor Scratch will process the signal, send back the music signal to the same channel. So it will be like youre running a normal vinyl record! I know on the Korgs, you have to waste two channels just to accomplish this, which seems like a waste to me.
On to the MIDI....as I've said, the entire board is a MIDI controller. The EVO allows you to assign any channels to be either in AUDIO mode or MIDI mode. You can use the 6 buttons on both sides of the screen, as well as the 4 push/turn knobs on the bottom as custom controls, you can label them whatever you want on the screen.
You can then save different layouts for different programs....one for Ableton, one for traktor etc.... up to 64 layouts, and just load em up on the fly whenever you want.
On to the effects.....you have 9 basic effects built in, but you can modify any of them however you wish. You can also combine any two effects and make your own custom effects. Again, you have the ability to save up to 64 of them, and load em up whenever you want. Very cool.
Since the mixer is digital, you can change pretty much any aspect of the mixer. You can change the EQ frenquency ranges and gains, change the MIC EQ's, put a PASSWORD PROTECTED limiter on the outputs, upgrade the firmware etc. Its amazing what you can do with this thing.
If you guys have any questions, just lemme know. There should be a complete video of the EVO coming up soon....but for now, you can check out the site at www.evobyecler.com |
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| Ryan0751 |
Sounds like a much better thought out design than the 3D. I'd personally prefer an Ecler over the Korg any day as well. The Korg seems more studio oriented.
| quote: | Originally posted by Soundwerks
Heres my little review of the EVO5...I'll try to keep it as factual as possible...but my opinion will be thrown in here and there.
Overall, the mixer is beautiful! Nice aluminum faceplate, chunky knobs, very open and uncluttered layout and the screen is very nice. Full color 3.5 TFT, nice and bright.
The mixer has 5 channels, 4 of which can be switched between PHONO/LINE/FW (firewire). The 5th channel is only MIC.
The ENTIRE mixer is a MIDI control surface...every button, knob, fader....you have 69 physical MIDI controls, and you can have up to 64 MIDI layouts or maps stored in the mixer, for up to 4416 different MIDI commands! :eyespop: More on that later....
The EVO5 is a bit different than its competitors by offering a 12 channel FW soundcard. Thats 6 IN, 6 OUT. What you have is channels 1/2/3/4 are on 1/2 - 3/4 - 5/6 - 7/8 on the soundcard. 9/10 on the soundcard are routed to the master BUS (output) of the mixer, and 11/12 are routed directly to the PFL (headphones). This is VERY cool because this way, you dont have to route any outputs from your PC to any channels on the mixer....you dont have to waste an audio channel to get the audio from your PC...it just comes right into the master BUS/PFL of the mixer! For example, in Ableton, you can use all 5 of the EVO's channels as MIDI controls, and have the audio output from Ableton come right into FW channels 11/12 on the EVO, and have the CUE/PFL from Ableton come into FW channels 10/11 on the EVO. This leaves all 5 channels
The FW soundcard also allows you to route any of the channels to an output on the FW card. For instance, you can have a standard turntable on channel 1 PHONO, route it to FW output channels 1/2 to Ableton, use Ableton as your FX processor, and run back to channels 1/2 on the FW card! No extra wiring needed...it all goes thru the card! :D
The EVO5 is also Traktor Scratch Certified. What this means is that you can use Traktor Scratch, but you dont need the AUDIO 8 soundcard. You simply plug in your decks to the EVO. The EVO will send the timecode signal from the input to Traktor Scratch via FW. Traktor Scratch will process the signal, send back the music signal to the same channel. So it will be like youre running a normal vinyl record! I know on the Korgs, you have to waste two channels just to accomplish this, which seems like a waste to me.
On to the MIDI....as I've said, the entire board is a MIDI controller. The EVO allows you to assign any channels to be either in AUDIO mode or MIDI mode. You can use the 6 buttons on both sides of the screen, as well as the 4 push/turn knobs on the bottom as custom controls, you can label them whatever you want on the screen.
You can then save different layouts for different programs....one for Ableton, one for traktor etc.... up to 64 layouts, and just load em up on the fly whenever you want.
On to the effects.....you have 9 basic effects built in, but you can modify any of them however you wish. You can also combine any two effects and make your own custom effects. Again, you have the ability to save up to 64 of them, and load em up whenever you want. Very cool.
Since the mixer is digital, you can change pretty much any aspect of the mixer. You can change the EQ frenquency ranges and gains, change the MIC EQ's, put a PASSWORD PROTECTED limiter on the outputs, upgrade the firmware etc. Its amazing what you can do with this thing.
If you guys have any questions, just lemme know. There should be a complete video of the EVO coming up soon....but for now, you can check out the site at www.evobyecler.com |
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| DjArTiN! |
| i just think the evo looks sick |
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