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School Shooting in... Finland. 7 killed (pg. 2)
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| Zild |
| Making guns illegal only takes them out of the hands of law abiding citizens. The criminals (cops and robbers) will still have them. |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Yep, your quote quite clearly contained the word "Nazi" so you lose! |
You lose for listening to others who've told you how to think. ;) |
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| Zild |
| Yeah that Nazi thing never happened and history never repeats itself. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zild
Making guns illegal only takes them out of the hands of law abiding citizens. The criminals (cops and robbers) will still have them. |
Actually, the criminals will find it harder (altho of course, not impossible by any means) to obtain guns, and anyone caught with a gun will be, by definition, a criminal, making them liable for prosecution.
So, anyone caught with a gun is a criminal and can be sent to jail. Whereas in a country where guns are illegal, there is no differentiation between law abiding gun totting citizens and criminals with guns, making it that little bit harder to prosectute criminals.
Also on the practical and logical side of the debate - are guns really any use to defend yourself with against other people with guns? After all, that's the justification: What if someone burst into my house with a gun? Or pulled a gun out on me down an alley? Well in either situation, it's very unlikely you will use a gun to defend yourself because you'd get shot first (or become involved in a shootout that would put you and your family at risk). Any sane person in that position would hand over their wallet (or whatever) and claim it back on the insurance.
Of course, the other justification for having a gun is living in a chronic paranoid society which is, apparently, under the constant threat of invasion from Communists to Jihadist Muslims... |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zild
Yeah that Nazi thing never happened and history never repeats itself. |
And internet protocol states if you use the Nazis to back up your argument you automatically lose the argument. Anyway, its a piss poor argument for gun control and is effectively saying that Americans need guns incase their government decides to systematically kill them all (in which case, only the Muslim population in America should be allowed to carry guns) |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And before YOU start bad mouthing the "supposedly more quiet and peaceful" Europe, perhaps you should wait to see how Finland deals with this incident compared to how America deals with these incidents (ie nothing whatsoever)
In 1996, some bloke walked into a school in Scotland, shot the place up and killed 16 children and their teacher, then turned the gun on himself. The classic "American-style" school shoot up. But the difference was that following that massacre, the UK immidiately made all hand guns illegal, unlike America who continues to allow its citizens to own all sorts of guns
So why don't we wait to see what effect in Finland - will they take the British route and act accordingly, or will they take the American route and do nothing... |
I don't think you understand gun rights in America.
* Second Amendment to the United States Constitution Protects the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms.
“ A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. ”
I'm of the guns don't kill people, people kill people camp, but I also believe that the preservation of a free state requires an armed citizenry as a counter-weight to state power. A way of keeping them in line, lest they want to take habeus corpus away from us, as Bush has done with his executive orders.
But even if you WANTED to abolish the right to bear arms, you'de have to repeal the second amendment with a super-majority of two-thirds vote. Essentially, almost everyone will have to agree, but guess what, it'll never happen! |
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| Zild |
Why did you need to make the assumption that people only own guns for self defense. I never said that. I use guns for sport all the time, so I don't think a whole nation has to be inconvenienced and denied a civil liberty just because some happened.
Same thing with 9/11 oh big deal they killed a few of us. So what! That is next to nothing compared to what we've done to them. Definitely not a reason to curb ANY rights and/or liberties. You don't oppress a whole nation just because some bad happened to an infinitesimal amount of the population. |
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| ams.rld |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Why do you think the UK police don't have guns?
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B/c I was under the impression that it was ILLEGAL. Also have been there and no cop has a gun on him in the streets. |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And internet protocol states if you use the Nazis to back up your argument you automatically lose the argument. Anyway, its a piss poor argument for gun control and is effectively saying that Americans need guns incase their government decides to systematically kill them all (in which case, only the Muslim population in America should be allowed to carry guns) |
To be more precise, someone came up with a way to get you to stop using your brain when you heard the word "Nazi" and for some reason you fell for it. :p |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Actually, the criminals will find it harder (altho of course, not impossible by any means) to obtain guns, and anyone caught with a gun will be, by definition, a criminal, making them liable for prosecution. So, anyone caught with a gun is a criminal and can be sent to jail. |
I think that you must have somehow come under the false impression that any American can simply just buy a handgun and carry it legally, without worrying about any sort of prosecution. That's hardly the case.
| quote: | | Whereas in a country where guns are illegal, there is no differentiation between law abiding gun totting citizens and criminals with guns, making it that little bit harder to prosectute criminals. |
You lost me on that part.
| quote: | | Also on the practical and logical side of the debate - are guns really any use to defend yourself with against other people with guns? After all, that's the justification: What if someone burst into my house with a gun? Or pulled a gun out on me down an alley? Well in either situation, it's very unlikely you will use a gun to defend yourself because you'd get shot first (or become involved in a shootout that would put you and your family at risk). Any sane person in that position would hand over their wallet (or whatever) and claim it back on the insurance. |
It seems to work for our police and also for a few local store owners that I know who have had some potentially life threatening encounters. One of those store owners was even prosecuted for shooting the guy who robbed him.
| quote: | | Of course, the other justification for having a gun is living in a chronic paranoid society which is, apparently, under the constant threat of invasion from Communists to Jihadist Muslims... |
I wish we all lived in a utopian society where nobody has to be afraid of anyone else but unfortunately there's still a lot of evil in this world.
Anyway, another type of paranoid society could be one which doesn't think that it's law abiding citizens are able to handle and/or possess guns in a responsible manner. I'd hate to have to live under such a nanny state but I guess for some it might make them feel more secure. |
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| HardTranceProd |
I don't like America's "armed-to-the-teeth" lifestyle either. It's something that's completely alien to me.
However, this past week the world has been shaken by three extremely violent events which, surprisingly, were outside the USA. One was a brutal murder of a girl in an Italian village called Perugia. The second was this Finnish school massacre. And the third was the shooting at a rave in Venezula which left 4 people dead while DJ Carl Cox was spinning.
The US is not the only place where senseless violence occurs and sometimes people forget that. |
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