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Kosovo declaring independence from Serbia (pg. 11)
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| Krypton |
| Mag, I think many groups within the former Yugoslavia are guilty of war crimes. The best thing in my opinion is for all sides to put aside the past, let the Kosovans have their peace, and accept their independence as a reality of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia. Seriously, they need to chill out on that stuff. |
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| Magnetonium |
Here is the photographic evidence of Albanian terrorists destroying and damaging hundreds of Serbian cultural landmarks all around Kosovo. Note that none of these criminals have been brought to justice (see my previous post):
http://www.spc.yu/Vesti-2004/pogrom.html
"All these barbarous acts by the Albanian extremists have occured in the presence of UN and the International Peace Forces (KFOR), not in the time of war but of peace (since 2000)"
There are still several hundred of Serbs "missing" in Kosovo ... and Carla del Ponte herself wrote that these Serbs have fallen victims to human organ / body parts trade, these people's bodies have been totally stripped of their organs for money, and the leftovers that they couldn't convert into money - they buried the remaining body parts. Its f0cking disgusting. Yet noone gives a .
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Mag, I think many groups within the former Yugoslavia are guilty of war crimes. The best thing in my opinion is for all sides to put aside the past, let the Kosovans have their peace, and accept their independence as a reality of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia. Seriously, they need to chill out on that stuff. |
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: You gotta be kidding me ... FOR THOSE KIND OF CRIMES ... JUST FORGET ABOUT IT???/ What about international law? Justice? Yeah sure, Serbs should continue getting sold for body parts, their monuments destroyed, and Kosovo Albanians for doing all these crimes should just get their own new Kosovo country?!?! THAT IS ING SICK. I think I am going to puke.
You are forgetting one thing - ALL THESE CRIMES THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT against Serbs and other non-Albanian minorities happened AFTER 1999, DURING UN-ADMINISTERED PEACE!!!!!!!!! THATS WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY AFTER YUGOSLAVIA CEASED TO EXIST! And these crimes havent stopped. Looting, murder and destruction is going on, with no end in sight. Its ethnic cleansing, on the scale much worse than what Serbs did in 1999. And nothing, I mean NOTHING is being done to stop it or to punish those responsible. |
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| Krypton |
| Uh, I think you're overstating the situation. I have heard of no systematic campaign of ethnic cleansing in the Kosovo region since 1999. Perhaps, after the Serbs withdrew from Kosovo, obviously the Albanians would want to extract revenge and force the remaining Serbs out, hence why I still think it is an outgrowth of the breakup of Yugoslavia. Do you actually think forcing Kosovo to accept Serbian sovereignty is even possible? I'de be amazed if you did... |
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| Kapedan |
| Kosovo is Albanian. It was always Albanian. Evan before the Serbs came in the Balkans. We were there first. I would suggest you starting to read the history books before the Serbs came in the Balkans. I respect you as a person, but I think you have your facts wrong here my friend. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Uh, I think you're overstating the situation. I have heard of no systematic campaign of ethnic cleansing in the Kosovo region since 1999. Perhaps, after the Serbs withdrew from Kosovo, obviously the Albanians would want to extract revenge and force the remaining Serbs out, hence why I still think it is an outgrowth of the breakup of Yugoslavia. Do you actually think forcing Kosovo to accept Serbian sovereignty is even possible? I'de be amazed if you did... |
There's been a very troubling history of reprisal killings against local Serb populations that largely sat out the round of violence conducted by the Milosevic regime. You have to remember that Serbia is very different today - many of the thugs carrying out the worst atrocities against civilians were just that - thugs set loose by a government willing to fund them and turn a blind eye to their crimes. That government is long gone, as is the atmosphere that allowed the atrocities to occur. If it weren't for how greedy the KLA is in demanding independence (to which they have absolutely no legal claim), reconciliation would have been a very realistic possibility in Serbia/Kosovo. |
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| Dupz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kapedan
Kosovo is Albanian. It was always Albanian. Evan before the Serbs came in the Balkans. We were there first. I would suggest you starting to read the history books before the Serbs came in the Balkans. I respect you as a person, but I think you have your facts wrong here my friend. |
who mentioned anything about Albania?
oh, that's right.. it's all about Greater Albania, isnt it? nothing about Kosovo... :rolleyes: |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kapedan
Kosovo is Albanian. It was always Albanian. Evan before the Serbs came in the Balkans. We were there first. I would suggest you starting to read the history books before the Serbs came in the Balkans. I respect you as a person, but I think you have your facts wrong here my friend. |
No, no no ... you misunderstood me. Of course ethnic Albanians deserve a great say in Kosovo, I strngly criticized Serbian crackdown in Kosovo in 1998-1999, knowing full well that it will only led to more problems.
Albanian people do need and have a say in Kosovo - but I strongly oppose Kosovo Albanian approach in this situation. The article highlights simply how they abuse their new privileges and rights gained under NATO, and how they systematically push and kill out minorities, worse even than what Serbs did. They don't deserve an independent state for their brutal inhumane actions - they actuall have done nothing positivie to deserve their own state. They didnt try at all to protect minorities, give them equal say, and so on - where's the incentive? Instead they launched a cultural attack against Serbs which has resulted in so much bad blood to come. Besides, Kosovo has so little of industry and its so poor it cant even survive on its own as a state without NATO funding and suppport.
Thats what I am getting at. Kosovo is not over and done with. Thats too much of organ trafficking and cultural monument destruction and ethnic displacement for Serbs to swallow. Its not peace. Just like in Israel/Palestine - its the same dam approach, and we can all see full well where that one has led to. This one is no better. |
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| Kapedan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dupz
who mentioned anything about Albania?
oh, that's right.. it's all about Greater Albania, isnt it? nothing about Kosovo... :rolleyes: |
Where did I mention Albania?
I do not want a Greater Albania at this moment. Of course in the future, if the two governments can co-exist with one another, I do not see a reason why not.
Also, Magnetonium. At times like these, of course there will be people that abuse their rights. This is all emotion. Thousands of people were killed during the war. Of course people will be upset and not think reasonably.
Comparing this to the Israeli and Palestinian is going a little too far. I think with time, we will be fine. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
My main problem with this whole situation is that the unilateral declaration of independence (and subsequent recognition by states like the US) is flat-out in violation of Security Council Resolution 1244... if liberal internationalism is used as the reason to grant Kosovo independence, how can the circumvention of international law be justified? And if it is an attempt to invoke some form of customary law, then is it not necessary to apply said custom to the cases of Western Sahara, Somaliland, Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Chechnya, Tibet, etc., where there is in all cases a great deal better case to be made for independence? They have the institutions to govern, the historical case to be made for victimization by persecution and self-determination, and now a customary legal precedent.
Granting Kosovo independence, separate from the circumstances on the ground (which, by the way, seems to have rewarded the KLA for using violence as a tactic to gain independence... sending the exact wrong message to de facto states across the rest of the world) creates a whole plethora of legal quandaries that are yet to be resolved. In fact, it's downright frustrating and makes you wonder what the hell the US (and the other 30 countries) were thinking in recognizing Kosovo despite the protestations by the UN.
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Resolution 1244 (1999)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 4011th meeting,
on 10 June 1999
The Security Council,
Bearing in mind the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security,
Recalling its resolutions 1160 (1998) of 31 March 1998, 1199 (1998) of 23 September 1998, 1203 (1998) of 24 October 1998 and 1239 (1999) of 14 May 1999,
Regretting that there has not been full compliance with the requirements of these resolutions,
Determined to resolve the grave humanitarian situation in Kosovo, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and to provide for the safe and free return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes,
Condemning all acts of violence against the Kosovo population as well as all terrorist acts by any party,
Recalling the statement made by the Secretary-General on 9 April 1999, expressing concern at the humanitarian tragedy taking place in Kosovo,
Reaffirming the right of all refugees and displaced persons to return to their homes in safety,
Recalling the jurisdiction and the mandate of the International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia,
Welcoming the general principles on a political solution to the Kosovo crisis adopted on 6 May 1999 (S/1999/516, annex 1 to this resolution) and welcoming also the acceptance by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of the principles set forth in points 1 to 9 of the paper presented in Belgrade on 2 June 1999 (S/1999/649, annex 2 to this resolution), and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia's agreement to that paper,
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy ---- [NOTE: THIS DOES NOT MEAN INDEPENDENCE, but rather greater sub-regional autonomy as proposed later by Serbia] and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,
Determining that the situation in the region continues to constitute a threat to international peace and security,
Determined to ensure the safety and security of international personnel and the implementation by all concerned of their responsibilities under the present resolution, and acting for these purposes under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,
1. Decides that a political solution to the Kosovo crisis shall be based on the general principles in annex 1 and as further elaborated in the principles and other required elements in annex 2;
2. Welcomes the acceptance by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of the principles and other required elements referred to in paragraph 1 above, and demands the full cooperation of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in their rapid implementation;
3. Demands in particular that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia put an immediate and verifiable end to violence and repression in Kosovo, and begin and complete verifiable phased withdrawal from Kosovo of all military, police and paramilitary forces according to a rapid timetable, with which the deployment of the international security presence in Kosovo will be synchronized;
4. Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;
5. Decides on the deployment in Kosovo, under United Nations auspices, of international civil and security presences, with appropriate equipment and personnel as required, and welcomes the agreement of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to such presences;
6. Requests the Secretary-General to appoint, in consultation with the Security Council, a Special Representative to control the implementation of the international civil presence, and further requests the Secretary-General to instruct his Special Representative to coordinate closely with the international security presence to ensure that both presences operate towards the same goals and in a mutually supportive manner;
7. Authorizes Member States and relevant international organizations to establish the international security presence in Kosovo as set out in point 4 of annex 2 with all necessary means to fulfil its responsibilities under paragraph 9 below;
8. Affirms the need for the rapid early deployment of effective international civil and security presences to Kosovo, and demands that the parties cooperate fully in their deployment;
9. Decides that the responsibilities of the international security presence to be deployed and acting in Kosovo will include:
1. Deterring renewed hostilities, maintaining and where necessary enforcing a ceasefire, and ensuring the withdrawal and preventing the return into Kosovo of Federal and Republic military, police and paramilitary forces, except as provided in point 6 of annex 2;
2. Demilitarizing the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) and other armed Kosovo Albanian groups as required in paragraph 15 below;
3. Establishing a secure environment in which refugees and displaced persons can return home in safety, the international civil presence can operate, a transitional administration can be established, and humanitarian aid can be delivered;
4. Ensuring public safety and order until the international civil presence can take responsibility for this task;
5. Supervising demining until the international civil presence can, as appropriate, take over responsibility for this task;
6. Supporting, as appropriate, and coordinating closely with the work of the international civil presence;
7. Conducting border monitoring duties as required;
8. Ensuring the protection and freedom of movement of itself, the international civil presence, and other international organizations;
10. Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic self-governing institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo;
11. Decides that the main responsibilities of the international civil presence will include:
1. Promoting the establishment, pending a final settlement, of substantial autonomy and self-government in Kosovo, taking full account of annex 2 and of the Rambouillet accords (S/1999/648);
2. Performing basic civilian administrative functions where and as long as required;
3. Organizing and overseeing the development of provisional institutions for democratic and autonomous self-government pending a political settlement, including the holding of elections;
4. Transferring, as these institutions are established, its administrative responsibilities while overseeing and supporting the consolidation of Kosovo's local provisional institutions and other peace-building activities;
5. Facilitating a political process designed to determine Kosovo's future status, taking into account the Rambouillet accords (S/1999/648);
6. In a final stage, overseeing the transfer of authority from Kosovo's provisional institutions to institutions established under a political settlement;
7. Supporting the reconstruction of key infrastructure and other economic reconstruction;
8. Supporting, in coordination with international humanitarian organizations, humanitarian and disaster relief aid;
9. Maintaining civil law and order, including establishing local police forces and meanwhile through the deployment of international police personnel to serve in Kosovo;
10. Protecting and promoting human rights;
11. Assuring the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo;
12. Emphasizes the need for coordinated humanitarian relief operations, and for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to allow unimpeded access to Kosovo by humanitarian aid organizations and to cooperate with such organizations so as to ensure the fast and effective delivery of international aid;
13. Encourages all Member States and international organizations to contribute to economic and social reconstruction as well as to the safe return of refugees and displaced persons, and emphasizes in this context the importance of convening an international donors' conference, particularly for the purposes set out in paragraph 11 (g) above, at the earliest possible date;
14. Demands full cooperation by all concerned, including the international security presence, with the International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia;
15. Demands that the KLA and other armed Kosovo Albanian groups end immediately all offensive actions and comply with the requirements for demilitarization as laid down by the head of the international security presence in consultation with the Special Representative of the Secretary-General;
16. Decides that the prohibitions imposed by paragraph 8 of resolution 1160 (1998) shall not apply to arms and related matériel for the use of the international civil and security presences;
17. Welcomes the work in hand in the European Union and other international organizations to develop a comprehensive approach to the economic development and stabilization of the region affected by the Kosovo crisis, including the implementation of a Stability Pact for South Eastern Europe with broad international participation in order to further the promotion of democracy, economic prosperity, stability and regional cooperation;
18. Demands that all States in the region cooperate fully in the implementation of all aspects of this resolution;
19. Decides that the international civil and security presences are established for an initial period of 12 months, to continue thereafter unless the Security Council decides otherwise;
20. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Council at regular intervals on the implementation of this resolution, including reports from the leaderships of the international civil and security presences, the first reports to be submitted within 30 days of the adoption of this resolution;
21. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter. |
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| Krypton |
| This is all weird. It's as if the Western Alliance (NATO) is trying to surround Russia. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
This is all weird. It's as if the Western Alliance (NATO) is trying to surround Russia. |
I thought you were one of the guys who thought I was paranoid for saying similar stuff, heheh ;-) ;) |
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