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Palestine = Anne Frank's Annex (pg. 5)
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| shaolin_Z |
12.3. No Hitler Order
| quote: | No order for the extermination of the Jews written or authorized by Adolf Hitler has ever been discovered. The result of this situation is that many historians presume that the order was transmitted orally.
"There does not exist then, anything like a written order signed by [Hitler] for the extermination of the Jews in Europe."
Colin Cross, Adolf Hitler, (Milan, 1977), p. 313.
"Despite the great harvest of Nazi documents captured by the Allies at the end of the war, it is precisely the documents concerning the process of the formation of the idea of the final solution of the Jewish question that are missing, to the point that up until the present it is difficult to say how, when, and exactly by whom the order to exterminate the Jews was given."
Lilliano Picciotto Fargion, La congiura del silenzio (The Conspiracy of Silence), La Rassegna mensile d'Israel, May-August 1984, p. 226.
"For in the table talk, the speeches, the documents or the recollections of participants from all those years not a single concrete reference of [Hitler's] to the practice of annihilation has come down to us. No one can say how Hitler reacted to the reports of the Einsatzgruppen, whether he asked for or saw films or photos of their work, and whether he intervened with suggestions, praise, or blame. When we consider that he ordinarily transformed everything that preoccupied him into rampant speechmaking, that he never concealed his radicalism, his vulgarity, his readiness to go to extremes, this silence about the central concern of his life- involving, as it did in his mind, the salvation of the world - seems all the stranger."
Joachim C. Fest, Hitler (New York: Vintage Books, 1975), p. 681.
"Insofar as no one has yet discovered a written trace of this order [to liquidate the Jews under German control] in the sources which have been exploited up to the present, and insofar as it seems unlikely, it is incumbent on the historian to date it as precisely as possible by appealing to interpretation. Since the methods and the hypotheses on this subject are very numerous, we find ourselves confronted with very diverse opinions."
Saul Friedländer, L'Allemagne nazie et le genocide juif, Gallimard, Le Seuil, 1985, pp. 177f.
"For the want of hard evidence -- and in 1977 I offered, around the world, a thousand pounds to any person who could produce even one wartime document showing explicitly that Hitler knew, for example, of Auschwitz. My critics resorted to arguments ranging from the subtle to the sledgehammer (in one instance, literally). They postulated the existence of Fuehrer orders without the slightest written evidence of their existence. ...Of explicit, written, wartime evidence, the kind of evidence that could hang a man, they have produced not one line."
David Irving, Hitler's War (London: Focal Point, 1991), pp. 19f.
"To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given."
Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler's "Final Solution"), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p. 190.
" The New York Times' ... editorial (December 2, 1942) claimed that 'Of Germany's 200,000 Jews in 1939 all but 40,000 have been deported or have perished,' while going on to assert that 'according to evidence in the hands of the [U.S.] State Department, an order of Adolf Hitler demanding the extermination of all Jews in all territories controlled by Germany' was known to exist. Researchers nearly 40 years later were still searching for that order, or information leading to anyone who might have ever seen it at any time."
James J. Martin, The Man who invented 'Genocide': The Public Career and Consequences of Raphael Lemkin (Torrance: Institute for Historical Review, 1984), p. 40.
"No written document containing or reporting an explicit command to exterminate the Jews has come to light thus far. This does not of course mean that such direct evidence will not appear in the future. In the meantime, the presumption must be that the order or informal injunction to mass-murder Jews was transmitted orally."
Arno J. Mayer, Why did the Heavens not Darken?: The 'Final Solution' in History (New York: Pantheon Books, 1990), pp. 235f.
"The process by which total extermination replaced resettlement in Madagascar or 'the East' as the so-called final solution of the Jewish question remains unclear. No written order by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews has been discovered and the evidence of an oral order is only indirect. The chronology of the development of the extermination programme is also confused."
J. Noakes and G. Pridham, eds., Nazism: A History in Documents and Eyewitness accounts 1919-1945 - Vol. 2, (New York: Schocken Books, 1988), p. 1136.
"The archives torn from the bowels of the Third Reich, the depostions and accounts of its chiefs permit us to reconstruct in their least detail the birth and the development of its plans for aggression, its military campaigns, and the whole range of processes by which the Nazis intended to reshape the world to their pattern. Only the campaign to exterminate the Jews, as concerns its completion, as well as in many other essential aspects, remains steeped in fog. Psychological inferences and considerations, third- or fourth-hand accounts, allow us to reconstruct the developments with a considerable verisimilitude. Certain details, nevertheless, will remain unknown forever. As concerns the concept proper of the plan for total extermination, the three or four principal actors are dead. No document remains, and has perhaps never existed."
Leon Poliakov, Breviaire de la haine (Breviary of Hate) , Paris, 1979, p. 134.
"What became known in high Nazi circles as the Fuehrer Order on the Final Solution apparently was never committed to paper -- at least no copy of it has yet been unearthed in the captured Nazi documents. "
William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (New York: Fawcett Crest, 1960), p. 1256.
"One cannot fix the exact moment when Hitler gave the order- without doubt never drawn up in writing - to exterminate the Jews."
Christian Zentner, Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf. An edition with commentary by Christian Zentner, Munich, 1974, p. 168. |
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/RW/inconorders.html
12.4. Conclusion
Concerning the claimed extermination: No Order, No Plan, No Budget; No Holocaust.
Concerning the Jewish migration (aka Final Solution): Orders, Plans, Budgets; Migration. |
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| shaolin_Z |
I have to add one thing I forgot about 9.1 Treblinka.
| quote: | Treblinka Ground Radar Examination Finds No Trace of Mass Graves
A detailed forensic examination of the site of the wartime Treblinka camp, using sophisticated electronic ground radar, has found no evidence of mass graves there.
For six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.
According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), for example, "a total of 870,000 people" were killed and buried at Treblinka between July 1942 and April 1943. Then, between April and July 1943, the hundreds of thousands of corpses were allegedly dug up and burned in batches of 2,000 or 2,500 on large grids made of railway ties.
Krege's team used an $80,000 Ground Penetration Radar (GPR) device, which sends out vertical radar signals that are visible on a computer monitor. GPR detects any large-scale disturbances in the soil structure to a normal effective depth of four or five meters, and sometimes up to ten meters. (GPR devices are routinely used around the world by geologists, archeologists, and police.) In its Treblinka investigation, Krege's team also carried out visual soil inspections, and used an auger to take numerous soil core samples.
The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed. In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.
"From these scans we could clearly identify the largely undisturbed horizontal stratigraphic layering, better known as horizons, of the soil under the camp site," says the 30-year old Krege, who lives in Canberra. "We know from scans of grave sites, and other sites with known soil disturbances, such as quarries, when this natural layering is massively disrupted or missing altogether." Because normal geological processes are very slow acting, disruption of the soil structure would have been detectable even after 60 years, Krege noted.
While his initial investigation suggests that there were never any mass graves at the Treblinka camp site, Krege believes that further work is still called for.
"Historians say that the bodies were exhumed and cremated toward the end of the Treblinka camp's use in 1943, but we found no indication that any mass graves ever existed," he says. "Personally, I don't think there was an extermination camp there at all."
Krege is preparing a detailed report on his Treblinka investigation. He says that he would welcome the formation, possibly under United Nations auspices, of an international team of neutral, qualified specialists, to carry out similar investigations at the sites of all the wartime German camps.
Krege and his team are associated with, and funded by, the Adelaide Institute, a south Australia revisionist "think tank." Its director, Dr. Fredrick Töben, was jailed in Germany for seven months in 1999 for disputing Holocaust extermination claims.
(Sources: "'Vernichtungslager' Treblinka: archaelogisch betrachtet," by Ing. Richard Krege, in Vierteljarhreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung, June 2000 [4. Jg., Heft 1], pp. 62-64; "'No Jewish mass grave' in Poland," The Canberra Times, Jan. 24, 2000, p. 6; "Poland's Jews 'not buried at Treblinka'," The Examiner [Australia], Jan. 24, 2000. [The latter two newspaper items are reprinted in facsimile in VHO-info, May 2000, p. 30.]; Information provided by Richard Krege; M. Weber and A. Allen, "Treblinka," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1992, pp. 133-158; "German Court Sentences Australian Holocaust Skeptic," The Journal of Historical Review, July-August 1999, pp. 2-5; Y. Arad, "Treblinka," in I. Gutman, ed., Encyclopedia of the Holocaust [New York: 1997], pp. 1481-1488.) |
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20_radar.html
Short video about the investigation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wsxmCTScCE
The detailed report has been planned for a long time, but it propably is not going to come out until Germar Rudolf (chemist and publisher) is released from jail.
| quote: | Planned:Richard Krege, The Krege Report. Ground Penetrating Radar Research at the Operation Reinhardt Camps Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor
With high-tech devices, the author ventured out in search of the alleged mass graves and open air incineration sites, where millions are claimed to have perished – with surprising results. |
http://vho.org/GB/Books/HHS.html
This investigation was done over 7 years ago and nobody has tried to repeat it and either refute it or verify it. |
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| shaolin_Z |
13) What Happened to the Jews During the Second World War?
This will be based mostly on Walter Sanning's demographic research, The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry (1983, 90), referred as The Dissolution from now on. The book is available in German at: http://vho.org/D/da . Mostly, I will focus on the faith of the Jews in Poland and Soviet Union.
13.1. Jewish Faith in the Soviet Union
13.1.1. Soviet Deportations of Jews to Siberia from Poland at 1940
- 1,000,000 Jewish refugees from The Western Poland were deported to Siberia.
(Source: Treatment of Jews by the Soviet. 17th Interim Report of Hearings before Select Committee on Communist Aggression, House of Representatives, 83rd Congress, New York, September 22 and 23, 1954, p. 40.)
- 600,000 Jewish refugees from The Western Poland were deported to Siberia - 450 000 of these Jews vanished without a trace.
(Source: Henry Edward Schultz, national chairman of the ADL;Treatment of Jews by the Soviet. 17th Interim Report of Hearings before Select Committee on Communist Aggression, House of Representatives, 83rd Congress, New York, September 22 and 23, 1954, p. 25.)
- 600,000 Jewish refugees from The Western Poland were deported to Siberia (in the spring of 1940).
(Source: Polish Government-in-Exile.)
- 530,000 Jewish refugees from The Western Poland were deported to Siberia, 30 000 from Baltic countries, the rest from Eastern Poland.
(Source: J. Kulischer, Jewish statistician; Haganov, Gédéon. Le communisme et le Juifs, Supplément de CONTACT, Paris, May 1951, p. 9-15; See also Aronson, Gregor. Soviet Russia and the Jews, New York, 1949, p. 12.)
Other Jewish sources arrive at lower estimates.
The following is a straight quote from The Dissolution p. 42-43, I have cited Sannings sources #19-22:
"Rabbi Aaron Pechenick described the Soviet mass deportation in his book Zionism and Judaism in Soviet Russia published in New York in 1943 as follows on p. 60:
In two days and two nights [end of June 1949] almost one million Jews were loaded into cattle waggons under the most horrible circumstances and deported to Siberia and the Ural. ... The terrible journey lasted from four to six weeks. Having arrived at their destinations the Jews obtained only bread and water to sustain their lives after the long working days in the forests.
The Universal [Jewish Encyclopedia] reported that the Joint Distribution Committee - a large international Jewish refugee aid organization- initiated a relief program in early 1942 for 600 000 Polish Jewish refugees in Asiatic Russia. (Source #19: Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, p. 176.) However, if there were 600,000 of these Jewish refugees in Soviet Asia in early 1942, many more must have been shipped off to Siberia by the Soviets, because the journey brought death and hardship to many. In connection with the inhuman transport to the east, the Join Distribution Committee wrote in its Bulletin of June 1943: "From a fifth to a third of the number of refugees died ... whoever did not see the thousands of graves, mostly of children, cannot understand." (Source #20: Aronson, Gregor. Soviet Russia and the Jews, New York, 1949, p. 12.) This means that the number of Jewish Refugees from western Poland who were arrested by the Soviets and deported to Siberia ranged from 750,000 to 900,000! But only 600,000 survived the incredible journey and arrived at their destination [150 000 -250 000 died on the way to Siberia].
[...]
The extent of the Jewish flight before the German armies [in this case in Poland] is not at all unusual. As a result of years of continuous Zionist campaigns and Polish inflammatory propaganda, the Jewish fear of the Germans knew no limits; this is probably the most likely explanation for the panic which gripped Polish Jews and non-Jews. Similar events developed in May 1940 when 1˝ to 2 million panicky Belgians sought refuge in France, where they suffered severely; in mid-August 1940, there were still 1 million Belgians in France waiting to return home." (Source #22: Krakauer Zeitung, Krakau, "Noch 1 Million Belgier in Frankreich," No. 195, 8/18-19/1940, p. 4.)"
(Source: The Dissolution p. 42-43)
So, about 500,000 - 1,000,000 Jews were deported from Poland to Siberia. Sanning concludes that 750,000. Also, 100,000 Jews escaped into Rumania. This left all in all 757,000 Jews in the German occupied Western Poland and 1,776,000 Jews in the Soviet occupied Eastern Poland, of which 750,000 were deported to Siberian labor camps.
(Source: The Dissolution, p. 44.)
13.1.2. Evacuations of the Soviet cities
It is a well known fact that Stalin transferred his factories from the Western Soviet Union into Central Soviet Union, beyond Urals and beyond German reach. However, it is not as well known that Stalin also transferred millions of people into Siberia, to work for the war effort as forced labor. Sanning documents that Stalin deported about 7,5 - 12,5 million people into Siberia.
(Source: The Dissolution; Lorimer, Population of the Soviet Union, p. 195-197)
Referring to these Soviet measures, the Jewish author Gerald Reitlinger wrote:
"... it became the Russian policy to remove the working population so that the towns should not benefit the enemy. ... Not to consent to be evacuated was regarded as a hostile act, often visited with dire consequences later."
(Source: Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 228.)
However, Sanning concludes that about 25 million (even more than 25 million) people were propably deported into Siberia and Central Russia. Sanning concludes this based mostly on Soviet and German data.
(Source: The Dissolution, p. 70-74.)
Percentage of Jewish urban population in the following cities:
http://vho.org/D/da/Karte2.jpg
(White spot, 0-15%; half black spot, 16-30%; black spot, 31-53%. Documentation found at the Dissolution http://vho.org/D/da/3.html#Leere)
Percentage of succesfully evacuated urban population in the following cities, before Germans took the cities:
http://vho.org/D/da/Karte1.jpg
(White spot, 11-29%; half black spot, 30-59%; black spot, 60-90%. These figures mean all of the evacuated urban population, including Jews. Documentation found at the Dissolution http://vho.org/D/da/3.html#Leere)
Sanning thinks that about 80% of the Jews in the areas later conquered by the Germans were evacuated,
(Source: Aronson, Soviet Russia and The Jews, p. 18.)
but as his main source is an unreliable Soviet propagandist, David Bergelson, this figure is almost certainly too high.
Sanning also quotes a Soviet poet Itzik Feffer who declared formally during the war in New York that the Red Army: "saved a few million Jews!".
(Source: Aronson, Soviet Russia and The Jews, p. 18.)
And, D. Zalavsky told a plenary session of the Soviet-sponsored Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee: "The Red Army saved the Jewish people at the most critical hour of its history."
(Source: Zentralblatt des Reichskommissars für die Ukraine, Rowno, Nr. 2, 2. Jahrgang, 9.1.1943, S. 8--20, Bundesarchiv Koblenz: R 43 II/690c.)
13.1.3. Number of Jews who died in the Siberia
- 200 000 died in Siberia
(Source: American Jewish Committee; American Jewish Year Book, Vol. 49, p. 394.)
- 450 000 died in Siberia
(Source: Haganov, Gédéon. Le communisme et le Juifs, Supplément de CONTACT, Paris, May 1951.)
- 500 000 died in Siberia and in Central Asia
(Source: Jacob Lestschinsky (Jewish economist): American Jewish Year Book Vol. 49 p. 397.)
- 600 000 -700 000
(Source: Walter Sanning's own calculations, The Dissolution, Fourth Chapter - Deaths in Siberia; p. 106-109.)
13.1.4. Jewish deaths in the Red Army
200 000 Jews died in Red Army.
Source: Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol 14, p. 479.
13.1.5. Jewish population in the Soviet Union before the war
- 5,200,000
(Source: Wolfgang Benz, Dimension des Völkermords.)
- 5,337,000
(Source: The Dissolution, p. 109.)
- 5,500,000
(Source: Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 9, p. 670.)
13.1.6. Jewish population in the Soviet Union after the war
- 3 - 4 million Jews alive at the beginning of 1970's.
(Source: Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 9, p. 542)
- 4,5 million Jews alive said professor Michael Zand who is teaching at the Hebrew University, according to a report by Beth Shalom, an Israeli Newspaper.
(Source: Kern, Erich. Die Tragödie der Juden, Preussisch Oldendorff, 1979, p. 260.)
- 4 million [up to 4,000,000] Jews alive: "... [American Jewish Year Book] admitted that well-informed Russian Jews in the USSR and Soviet Emigrants continue assert that there are up to 4,000,000 Jews still alive in the Soviet Union." (Quote from The Dissolution, p. 117)
(Source: American Jewish Year Book, 1977, Vol. 78, p. 432.)
- 4 million [up to 4,000,000] Jews alive
(Source: New York Times, 1/22/1975, quoted in American Jewish Year Book, 1976, Vol. 77, p. 460.)
- 4,300,000 according to Sanning's calculations
(Source: The Dissolution.)
13.1.7. Jewish Victims in the Soviet Union
...200,000 died in the Red Army
+ 200,000 died in Siberia, at least [American Jewish Committee's figure]
+ 150,000 died on the way to Siberia
= 550,000 died alltogether because of Soviet policy, at least.
These were the minimum figures. Maximum figures would have put the death toll of Jews in the Soviet Union to over 1 million.
13.1.8. Summary
About 0,5 - 1 million Jews died in the Soviet Union, as a consequence of the Soviet policy, during the Second World War.
13.2. Jewish Faith in the German Sphere of Influence
All in all, about 3,5 - 5,2 million Jews came under German sphere of influence.
(Sources, respectively: The Dissolution, p. 199; Walter Laqueur, The Terrible Secret (Boston: Little Brown, 1980; New York: Henry Holt, 1998), p. 77.)
Hundreds of thousands of Jews were used as forced labor in German concentration camps, for the war effort. About 300,000 - 600,000 Jews died in the German concentration camps.
(Sources: Statistician Carl O. Nordling's study http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/11/3/No...ng335-344.html; Red Cross Concentration Camp Report http://www.historiography-project.org/webl...on-camp-r.html)
According to Germany's chief inspector of the statistical bureau of the SS, dr. Richard Korherr, about 1,274,166 Jews were deported through the concentration camps to Russia.
(Source: The Korherr Report http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/korherr_en.htm)
Many camps, such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, also had a transit section (confirmed by the Auschwitz museum itself). Aktion Reinhard camps, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, also functioned as transit camps. Through numerous concentration camps, hundreds of thousands of Jews were deported to other camps to forced labor and to Russia.
(Sources: Belzec http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/b/ ; Treblinka http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/)
Some, Jews died in ghettos, as a consequence of starvation, for the great part caused by the Allied bombing, that had caused German supply lines to collapse. In addition, the Einsatz troops also shot some tens of thousands of Jews in the Eastern front.
Based on Carl O. Nordling's statistical study, 13% of the Jews under German occupied areas, died during the war. Assuming that:
a) 3,5 million Jews came under German occupied areas and 13% of them died, then 455,000 Jews died in the German sphere of influence.
b) 4 million Jews came under German control of which 13% died, then 520,000 Jews died in German occupied areas.
c) 5,2 million Jews came under German control, of which 13% died, then 676,000 Jews died.
d) 5,2 million Jews came under German control of which 20% died, then about 1 million Jews died under German occupied areas.
The last one seems to be the maximum estimate, in my opinion. All in all, about 0,5 - 1 million Jews died in the German sphere of influence.
13.3. Summary
All in all, about 1,5 million Jews died during the Second World War (in my opinion this is the maximum figure). About 500,000 - 1,000,000 Jews died in the German sphere of influence. At least 500,000 Jews died in the Soviet Union, or maybe even 500,000 - 1,000,000.
(Sources: The Dissolution; Germar Rudolf, Dissecting the Holocaust, Holocaust Victims: A Statistical Analysis W. Benz and W. N. Sanning - A Comparison http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndstats.html ; Jürgen Graf, Jewish population losses in the German sphere of influence during the World War II http://www.historiography-project.org/misc...wishlosses.html )
During and after the war, Jews went where Jews are. |
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| shaolin_Z |
----The End----
DISCLAIMER: The Holocaust did happen, but historical accounts are largely exagerated for a the Zionist policital cause. It's not rocker science, and very easy to see if you're capable of breaking free of your cultural and social conditioning. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
You can hold on to your ignorance and dellusion by all means. Typical response "I'm not going to read all this stuff." |
What difference will it make if I did read all this spam you've just posted up? Am I all of a sudden gonna think, "hmmmm, well this Holocaust wasn't so bad after all was it"?
No. I will have exactly the same opinion on the matter as I have now, like I said, whether it was 6 thousand or 6 million...
Tell me, have you ever visited any of the concentration camps? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
What difference will it make if I did read all this spam you've just posted up? Am I all of a sudden gonna think, "hmmmm, well this Holocaust wasn't so bad after all was it"?
No. I will have exactly the same opinion on the matter as I have now, like I said, whether it was 6 thousand or 6 million... |
It's a repulsive attrocity eigther way, but exhagerated number get people to shut up, stay silent, and not ask any questions. It makes a subject taboo, which is pretty much what it is.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Tell me, have you ever visited any of the concentration camps? |
I will be soon, and I know plenty of people who have, including Jews. How does that change a thing when it comes to this research?
EDIT: I understand your reactionary response, I was the same way the first time I came across revisionist material. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
What difference will it make if I did read all this spam you've just posted up? Am I all of a sudden gonna think, "hmmmm, well this Holocaust wasn't so bad after all was it"?
No. I will have exactly the same opinion on the matter as I have now, like I said, whether it was 6 thousand or 6 million... |
What made me post all this "spam" as you call it was the BS argument given by jerZ07002.
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
apparently not, i said it.
you think that the death of just over 4000 palestinians, resulting mainly from military exercises (i know more than half of the deaths were civilians), in 7 years is the same as 6 million dead jewish people over 5 years? And many more sent to death camps awaiting death?
that notion is simply ridiculous. Palestinians may be restricted to gaza and the west bank, but they are not being forced into gas chambers by the thousands. the Palestinians have a government (however irrelevant it is), and they have elections. The jewish people in the 30s and 40s didn't have half the rights Palestinians have now. come back to reality, i suggest you people visit one of the interment camps or a museum on the holocaust. The palestinians have it nowhere near as bad as the jewish people did. i'm not justify anything, but your suggestions are just stupid. |
Apply your question to him to... I'm not saying you have a double standard, but undoubtably several here do. That was the point. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| I just find it repulsive that one holocaust is used to justify another, to the extent that the latter isn't even acknowledged by some. It's quite sickening and the epitomy of hypocrisy. |
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| TranceGiant |
| God, Shaolin, you suck so much. You people (self proclaimed "Israel critics") are the worst of all and constantly expose inherent hatred that even justifies fundamental argumentative contradictions. How can the same people that leave out no opportunity to belittle the Holocaust or even partly/completely deny it (alternatively: construct a Zionist conspiracy that lead it in the background) be the ones whose main means of demonizing Israel is the nonstop comparison to Nazis and the Palestinian Territories to Cencentration Camps? The same ones that use Ahamadinejad's evergreen of the "Palestinians" that are the "true" Holocaust victims? Why don't you decide once and for all where you're standing? You can't dance on two weddings, can you. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
God, Shaolin, you suck so much. You people (self proclaimed "Israel critics") are the worst of all and constantly expose inherent hatred that even justifies fundamental argumentative contradictions. How can the same people that leave out no opportunity to belittle the Holocaust or even partly/completely deny it (alternatively: construct a Zionist conspiracy that lead it in the background) be the ones whose main means of demonizing Israel is the nonstop comparison to Nazis and the Palestinian Territories to Cencentration Camps? The same ones that use Ahamadinejad's evergreen of the "Palestinians" that are the "true" Holocaust victims? Why don't you decide once and for all where you're standing? You can't dance on two weddings, can you. |
Take a good long look at my sig TranceGiant. I've had it pretty much ever since I started posting on PDD and I've had it after I looked in to revisionist material over a year ago. So spare me the ad hominems and bull. If it makes you feel any better there isn't a single Arab state I don't despise eigther. The State DOES NOT equal the people for the last ing time, it's an institutional structure run by the power's that be. The care nothing for the people living under it, wheather they're Jewish or Gentile. As a Jew, you should be well aware of this as your people have historically suffered persecution, and should be rather disillusioned with the concept of a state in the first place. |
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| TranceGiant |
| Fail to actually see the connection between what you just wrote (skepticism towards national states) and your ongoing Nazi comparisons. Zionism in its very essence is no more and no less "extreme" than any other nationalist movements throughout history. Regardless of the amounts of dubious quotes of Zionist forefathers you're about to paste now, it is a morally indifferent notion, a project with a positive approach FOR the Jewish people and not AGAINST its alleged enemies. It is the theory that supposes that only a national state run by the Jews themselves can gurantee longlasting safety and independence for the Jewish people. The State is designed to serve as a Safe Heaven for the persecuted and not as a crazy racist experiment by a bunch of psychotic scientists. History has taught the Jewish people the very tough lesson that no one will stood up for them if not they themselves. In an age of nationalist states run by democratically legitimated governments the self-organization in that way seemed the most reasonable and efficient one. If you generally reject the idea of National states you'd better start with European powers in the 19th century (or smiliar movements throughout the Arab world post WWI) and then are free to pick on Israel at some later point |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I just find it repulsive that one holocaust is used to justify another, to the extent that the latter isn't even acknowledged by some. It's quite sickening and the epitomy of hypocrisy. |
I have no problem with you arguing against people who justify Israeli actions towards the Palestinians because of the Holocaust, these people should rightly be opposed. What I take exception to is attempts to lessen the value of what happened in the Holocaust so it can be juxtaposed to other tragedies in order to make a political argument.
I personally wouldn't describe what is happening to the Palestinians as a "Holocaust" despite what officials in Israel might have promised to deliver to Gazans, there are just too many different factors (and I'm not even talking numbers here). But that's by the by, just my personal opinion.
I don't thinks it's useful or effective to draw parallels between the two situations because you just open yourself up to easy counter arguments. I certainly don't think it's useful or effective to try and find evidence that the Holocaust wasn't as widespread as acknowledged so you can compare it to another humanitarian tragedy, that just opens yourself up to the obvious accusations like TranceGiant has just made.
If you want to argue against Israeli action in the Occupied Territories then fine, I do regularly as you know. But stick that that and don't let yourself or others get sidetracked with arguing about other situations that quite frankly, have nothing to do with the Palestinian situation and serves only to direct attention away from the real issue which is the situation the Palestinians find themselves in... |
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