Originally posted by AlphaStarred
And first of all, I've never heard of such a myth...
I'm guessing you don't read major music press outlets such as Mixmag very often. Although I've provided an example of it at work in this thread. You're not going to find it if you're looking for someone to outright say "Subtlety is better". It can be seen at work in the aggressive revisionism towards notable styles to contradict it. Hence descriptions of prog house as cheesy, overblown and dated simply by the default of being prog house.
LionsLair
quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
At that time the fashionable composers felt that it would be "kitsch" to keep using the emotional gestures of the 19th century Romantic composers (similar to how producers today view the excesses of '90s trance). They thought of the melodically rich compositions and sweeping arrangements of those compositions as "old hat," part of an outmoded era of music, quite similar to how that RA reviewer spoke about the new Seaman Renaissance compilation. It was uncool to write such "obvious" stuff anymore. They thought it was beneath them, childish, to attempt to "move" people with music -- or at least it become "uncool" to try to do so in an open and accessible manner.
So what did they do?
They started writing atonal and process music, purposefully divorcing themselves from any close relationship to the emotions of their audiences, and striving for originality by going "beyond" tonality.
The EDM analogue to these atonal works are the complex, effects-laden but melodically sparse sounds adopted by so many "minimal" and tech-house producers. Going "beyond" the easy openness, enthusiasm, and frank expression of emotion that was so prevalent in '90s dance music.
ill co-sign to this.
LionsLair
Interesting reading this thread, the past 2-3 weeks Ive been making some emotional music for the most part. Two tracks called "Thrive" aka Hopeless Happiness and another called "Baroque" on the happier uplifting side, and one darker/sad track named "Drone" aka Mother Ship.
LionsLair
quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
I think that a lot of people these days have adopted an attitude I'll call "meanspirited lightheartedness."
It's sort of a different take on "not taking things seriously."
Instead of "don't needlessly stress yourself out by taking things too seriously" it's more like "don't take things too seriously -- so that you can make fun of lots of things, look cool, and disclaim any emotional involvement."
Co-Sign to this as well.
Barachem
I love emotion in the tracks i listen.
I couldn't care less for what is popular/fashionable and i follow my own trends.
I like emotional sounding trance, but be it different from what most would consider the cheese from 1998 - 2003 and especially not the so called trance classics from that era.
I have a reasonable different definition for what i call trance, i see melodic and harmonic sounding 4/4 electronica that is made to invoke emotions as trance.
Not all such trance creations do i like, oh no no no no...
There are certain things i really hate about many trance tracks, i hate clones of the 1998 - 2003 era, i hate the euphoric bland tracks that just keep coming year after year and that other people seem to love to death [currently i'm listening to such a bland track, yech.]
:crazy:
I do love melancholy in trance or rightly presented excitement.
I do like a good mix between all elements of a track and dancability.
Long breakdowns don't throw me off if they're well done and add to a track.
Tracks i really like: Kenneth Thomas & Mike Skye - Varekai [Alt+F4 Remix]
D-Air - Abrente [Alexey Selin Remix]
Duderstadt - Muhanjala [Sean Tyas Remix]
Hybrid - Finished Symphony [Deadmau5 Remix]
Hawk - Need for Cognition [Original Mix]
Myon - Albion [Original Mix]
Smith & Pledger - Northern Lights [Original Mix]
Joonas Hahmo - Sound of Sunday [Original Mix]
David West - Suffering Island [Joonas Hahmo Mix]
Boom Jinx ft. Thomas J Bergerson - Remember September [Original Mix]
Above & Beyond - Getaway [Original Mix]
Kyau & Albert - Falling Anywhere [Original Mix]
Jonas Steur - Second Turn [Original Mix]
Carl B - Just a Thought [Original Mix]
Ayu - Appears [Kyau & Albert Dub]
JPL - Mirakel [Supüer Remix]
I admit, some of it quite cheesy, but i don't care, cause i like it.
For me there's emotion to these tracks, regardless of what other may proclaim or theorize and they resonate with my emotions.
Whether you like tracks with emotion or not or find it necessary to tell others that something is hot, sophisticated, good, emotional, complec, etc. or not, fact is that people have their own tastes for music and you have to respect that, whether you share the taste or not.
As far as emotion is concerned, think there's enough of it to find in EDM even though not in the same amount in the various styles.
I find trance to be quite emotional, especially the trance i like.
I can't speak for others though.
PETRAN
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
PETRAN,
it's interesting that you make that distinction, because I had the same realization just a few hours ago as I was waiting for the train.
The basic response is definitely not the same kind of emotion.
I was thinking to myself whether or not it was in fact emotionless. The kind of music I was describe is rather meditative, and meditation is generally anti-emotion. Emotion clouds the meditation. Eliade, in that passage I quoted describes the reverse of the 'flood/deluge' (immersion) as the creation of form (emersion). I think emotion is related to this concept of creating a form from the formless. This is why I think melodic forms and structures carry emotions.
But in all my personal experience meditative music becomes rather emotional. It's not an instant emotion that someone would get from a Power Chord, but it's an emotion arrived at from the repetition.
We have to define emotion here for this thread to be useful. I mean, ambivalence, Loneliness, Boredom, Anxiety, Depression, etc can all be emotions that might correspond to minimal techno. They're not the same as 'Euphoria' obviously, but they are nonetheless emotions.
In any case I think euphoria can build from repetition. (eg 808 state - the extended pleasure of dance, ricardo villalobos - 808 the bassqueen) tracks like the villalobos and jam & spoon - stella give me a certain kind of building reverie that is far stronger than the sugar high I could get on epic trance. simple dub techno tracks like atheus make me feel like i'm flying. it's a euphoria that stems from the freedom
also if it makes any sense, I really like music that inspires a sense of wonder and mystery. wonder is an emotion, right? i definitely aim to create that sense of mystery in my own composition
as you said, I believe melodic sequences are related to human language. Aril Brikha's Ex Machina is a great example of an emotional melody that 'speaks'
However, there is plenty of emotion to be found chord changes over time.
Chopin's Prelude, is a great example.
EDIT: Also, sorry for taking so long to respond, i was away for a couple of days. I have divided this response so it may be a bit easier to read:
MINIMAL/DUB TECHNO, FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS.
I would go with your first statement that says that "meditative music" is not emotional and i woud think that music by classic dub minimal techno artists, such as Basic Channel, Vainquer, Maurizio, Fluxion (who is , IMO, BEST deep/dub minimal techno artist ever)somehow is mediative and as a result, NOT emotional indeed! But as i said before, something not "emotional", doesn't make it free of "feelings". Even the power of meditation-which as you correctly said is in fact emotionless-lies in inducing a certain state of feelings e.g. tranquillity, piece, harmony etc. These feelings can be caused by dub techno artists and this is why i like their music some times. By listening to it, i get these hypnotic feelings etc. I remember a few tracks by Fluxion which were very "subtle" (as you call it) and by listening to them i ended-up feeling very weird...
...there was this track called, "Aviation" which was comprised by nothing more then a bunch of low frequency non-changing chords soaked in reverb, delay and distortion. This sound mimicked the sound you hear sometimes when a flying item moves in the air from distance and i got a sense of something approaching. I felt, pieceful but somehow anxious at the same time (p.s. i'm not on drugs)!
SOME MODERN THEORIES ABOUT EMOTIONS
To clear-things up about emotions, most scientists thing that the basic emotions are "Happyness", "Sadness", "Fear", "Anger" and "Disgust" although some have argued that "Joy" and "Surprise" must be added to the "basic list". You get all rest emotions, by "mixing" different proportions of these basic ones and varying their "intensity" which is called "arousal". As a result, "sadness" of low arousal is "melancholy" whereas of "high arousal" is "depression". "High arousal" "sadness" with a bit of "anger" makes "despair", "high arousal" "anger" with maybe a bit of "disgust" makes "hate", "high arousal" "joy" makes "ecstacy", "sadness" of medium arousal mixed with a bit of happyness makes "nostalgia" etc. etc. it is like colours really.
MORE THOUGHTS ABOUT EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS
Ofcourse, the way that these "blends" are going to happen is guided by cognitive factors, such as the interpretation of a situation, past memories etc. I have an even more "deductive" theory which states that instead of reducing some "emotions" to more "basic emotions", all emotions can be broken down to to certain "feelings" (phenomenological states) associated with "arousal-intensity" and guided by cognitive factors. So for example "happyness" occurs when a "moderate-high aroused" (arousal-intensity factor)individual experiences a feeling of "pleasure" ("feeling factor") and thinks/interprets this feeling (cognitive factor) that it will be sustained for a moderate-long amount of time through-out his/her life (this idea is influenced by Power and Dalgleish cognitive theory of emotions really!). Now, i don't want to turn this thread into some nerdy scientific discussion lol!
MINIMAL TECHNO AND EDM REVISITED BY SUCH MODERN THEORETICAL VIEWS
So, yes, IMO techno and minimal mostly induce more stripped-down "feelings" rather than full-blown emotions, or when it is emotions, it is emotions of low-magnitude ("low arousal", as i said before i felt "anxious" so "low arousal fear" with THAT Fluxion track). Thing is that with "subtlety" i thing you can never get "medium-high" arousal so you can never experience really high-magnitude emotions (remember my first post of emotional EDM of "high magnitude"!). Furthermore, despite the "euphoria", i mostly get the emotion of "nostalgia" from epic trance, that is medium arousal "sadness" mixed with "happyness". A representative example:
I personally though never felt, "loneliness" or "depression" from minimal techno, i certainly felt "boredom" at times (where probably "boredom" is a lack of emotion-or colour black in colour terms to make a colour analogy!). I would like you to inform me of some minimal techno tracks that induce these emotions for you though!
MORE THOUGHTS ON MINIMAL TECHNO FROM A MODERN THEORETICAL VIEWPOINT
I thing that the reason one gets a limited amount of emotion from such music is due to a lack of more complex melody. This is because-as i said before- more complex melody mimicks language prosody, and hence induces more complex cognitive states to the individual (its like the music "talking" to the listener)increasing the change for "full-blown", "high-arousal/high-magnitude" emotions to occur. Also, this blends nice with the fact, that the tracks that stay in collective and personal memory are the ones which are more melodic in contrast to tones of minimal techno which lack of melody, and hence, have a lower chance to cause more elaborate cognitive states, lower chance to cause high arousal, and hence, a higher chance to fade from memory! (and hence a higher chance for a minimal techno track to ber "out of print" in a relatively small amount of time!
ON THE RELATIVITY OF EMOTIONAL STATES AND MUSIC AND INTER-INDIVIDUAL VARIABILITY
I have to state here that what you get is what "you want to get". I don't know if this was you that said that before, but most individuals listen to music that reflects their internal mental states. Some individuals are generally of "low arousal" and so they would enjoy more subtle music, a depressed melancholic/depressed individual would search for music that induces more "high-arousal" states and ofcourse because dynamic human mental state derives from comparison, the "high arousal" and the "low arousal" and the "feelings" etc, are not going to be the same for every individual.
So, a poorly music-exposed individual could (maybe?) feel full-blown sadness by a minimal techno track due to the fact that he/she has never listen to other music such as Mozart's "requiem". By listening to more music, his/her emotional indexes/criteria/thresholds would dynamically change through-out the continuous comparisons, varying the degree of emotion that he/she well get.
CONCLUDING!
There are mroe things i would like to say but i understand that this is a "music discussion" forum not some nerdy philosophical/scientific thread! And i don't have a cor version! Good luck in reading it lol!
PETRAN
quote:
Originally posted by david.michael
Which opens the gate for another question... do the titles of songs affect your emotional response to them?
In other words, would your emotional response to that song differ if it were named Mathew Jonson - Cold Blue Ocean or Mathew Jonson - Babies in a Blender (assuming you heard/read the title prior to hearing the song, or at all)?
I think, yes. For me, anyway. Which seems shallow, but I definitely listen to a song differently than I would have when I don't know the title (or even artist), I think.
Ok, i just saw this post.Absolutely have to agree. Cognitive factors such as these (e.g. the name of the tune) can possibly influence the final emotional experience. Not only that, any "cognitive factor", e.g. the categorization of the track in a favorite/least favorite genre can have an effect, even the attitudes towards the artist. See my previous post on the role of cognition/thinking on emotion. Those who thing that "emotion" is different then thinking they are indeed wrong. There can be no emotion without thinking.
Trance-MB
quote:
Originally posted by Barachem
I love emotion in the tracks i listen.
I couldn't care less for what is popular/fashionable and i follow my own trends.
I like emotional sounding trance, but be it different from what most would consider the cheese from 1998 - 2003 and especially not the so called trance classics from that era.
I have a reasonable different definition for what i call trance, i see melodic and harmonic sounding 4/4 electronica that is made to invoke emotions as trance.
Not all such trance creations do i like, oh no no no no...
There are certain things i really hate about many trance tracks, i hate clones of the 1998 - 2003 era, i hate the euphoric bland tracks that just keep coming year after year and that other people seem to love to death [currently i'm listening to such a bland track, yech.]
:crazy:
I do love melancholy in trance or rightly presented excitement.
I do like a good mix between all elements of a track and dancability.
Long breakdowns don't throw me off if they're well done and add to a track.
Tracks i really like: Kenneth Thomas & Mike Skye - Varekai [Alt+F4 Remix]
D-Air - Abrente [Alexey Selin Remix]
Duderstadt - Muhanjala [Sean Tyas Remix]
Hybrid - Finished Symphony [Deadmau5 Remix]
Hawk - Need for Cognition [Original Mix]
Myon - Albion [Original Mix]
Smith & Pledger - Northern Lights [Original Mix]
Joonas Hahmo - Sound of Sunday [Original Mix]
David West - Suffering Island [Joonas Hahmo Mix]
Boom Jinx ft. Thomas J Bergerson - Remember September [Original Mix]
Above & Beyond - Getaway [Original Mix]
Kyau & Albert - Falling Anywhere [Original Mix]
Jonas Steur - Second Turn [Original Mix]
Carl B - Just a Thought [Original Mix]
Ayu - Appears [Kyau & Albert Dub]
JPL - Mirakel [Supüer Remix]
I admit, some of it quite cheesy, but i don't care, cause i like it.
For me there's emotion to these tracks, regardless of what other may proclaim or theorize and they resonate with my emotions.
Whether you like tracks with emotion or not or find it necessary to tell others that something is hot, sophisticated, good, emotional, complec, etc. or not, fact is that people have their own tastes for music and you have to respect that, whether you share the taste or not.
As far as emotion is concerned, think there's enough of it to find in EDM even though not in the same amount in the various styles.
I find trance to be quite emotional, especially the trance i like.
I can't speak for others though.
You certainly did for me from the other side of the country.
stevësto
there are some things i am seeing in this thread that should be clarified:
in the beginning of the thread, i think most were using the word "emotion" to describe a beautiful happy feeling. but later it was discussed that we're actually referring to a broader range of feelings.
then, it was finger pointing mostly at the current popularity of minimal/tech as the reason for the perception there is lack of "emotion" in modern EDM.
then, people who are currently into the minimal sound defend minimal by saying it causes the same emotional response as trance, but in an abstract non direct way.
then, there is the argument of which is better, indirect or direct, which i think people are agreeing neither is better, but there is still the preferences of each poster to lean towards one or the other.
The first problem started with claiming minimal is emotional in an indirect way. minimal is not emotional or non emotional, it is just an attribute or way of approaching art. there are emotions or feelings expressed in a minimal way in some minimal tracks, and there are other minimal tracks which were not intended to express any particular emotions or feelings at all. for example you could take a happy feeling trance track, and express it in a minimal way, an abstract non direct obvious way. in today's trend, that most likely would mean slowing the bpm down, reducing the amount of instrumentation and shortening the duration of sounds being used. that description could spark a long argument though, but lets just generalize for the sake of brevity and staying on topic.
GENERALLY, most minimal music for the dance floor today is not intended to evoke happy feelings, just as most drum circles dont either, key word most. there are minimal tracks that make you feel alive and energetic, happy, sad, or whatever feeling. then there are minimal tracks that dont spark so much a feeling, but rather a thought, a theme, an ideal. the important thing is, the amazing and very powerful thing about minimal, is when it has this effect on you, it is difficult to judge and describe why.
How can a simple arrangement of traditional drums trigger a range of moods? Tap the outer edge of the drum for a higher note, the middle for a lower note. The notes, the tones, are the key to emotions. Same goes for minimal dance music, its all in the tones when it comes to emotions. But there is so much more to music than just emotion.
The perception of lack of emotion in today's music I think has more to do with conformity and tradition. Its just a matter of people experimenting and trying new things. Clubbers dont just stick to listening to trance for 20 years and never wander anywhere else, rather, they eventually get tired of a sound and curiosity leads them to try other stuff. Same goes for music makers. Right now people are less interested in happy feeling music and more interested in hypnotic, meditative music, but also emotions presented in an abstract way. They also want to experiment with groove, swing, and variation within a 4x4 beat for the sake of conformity, and its just coincidence the closest genre that fell into this is minimal/tech. Abstract art has always had an older audience. As the first generation of clubbers are now getting into their 30's and 40's, this is a natural progression. Unfortunately, as with abstract minimalist art galleries, snootiness and pretentiousness is common. It shouldn't have to be this way, but people aren't perfect.
The problem I have, is that minimal dance is mostly a minimal form of tech house, which has never had much emotion in it, nor has it ever been very cerebral, it was always more about groove and variety. There's a pendulum that swings and right now we are shifting into new forms of dance music and we are unbalanced. Eventually it will balance out where the things we've forgotten in the past will be remembered and incorporated back into these new forms of dance music in these confusing times. There's a whole lot more reasons for the general feeling of dance today and its not just the music itself, its the people themselves.
nefardec
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
To clear-things up about emotions, most scientists thing that the basic emotions are "Happyness", "Sadness", "Fear", "Anger" and "Disgust" although some have argued that "Joy" and "Surprise" must be added to the "basic list". You get all rest emotions, by "mixing" different proportions of these basic ones and varying their "intensity" which is called "arousal". As a result, "sadness" of low arousal is "melancholy" whereas of "high arousal" is "depression". "High arousal" "sadness" with a bit of "anger" makes "despair", "high arousal" "anger" with maybe a bit of "disgust" makes "hate", "high arousal" "joy" makes "ecstacy", "sadness" of medium arousal mixed with a bit of happyness makes "nostalgia" etc. etc. it is like colours really.
Where is this from? This seems very awkward to me, either like fitting a square peg through a round hole or just oversimplifying...
(in any case despair is fear+sadness :p)
quote:
Originally posted by PETRAN
Furthermore, despite the "euphoria", i mostly get the emotion of "nostalgia" from epic trance, that is medium arousal "sadness" mixed with "happyness". A representative example:
Nostalgia is what I would get from listening to some epic trance tracks as well. It's kind of a nostalgia for childhood/lost innocence.
I tend to think people who are older than 21 and still swear by epic trance have problems growing up for that reason. :D
PETRAN
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
Where is this from? This seems very awkward to me, either like fitting a square peg through a round hole or just oversimplifying...
(in any case despair is fear+sadness :p)
Nostalgia is what I would get from listening to some epic trance tracks as well. It's kind of a nostalgia for childhood/lost innocence.
I tend to think people who are older than 21 and still swear by epic trance have problems growing up for that reason. :D
First time i was studying for my first-year biopsychology exams here:
Why awkaward? Its a taxonomic system to classify emotions along two or three levels and it is derived by both experimental and psychometric research. It is actually very similar to colour-classification schemes in which all colours can be similarly classified along three ot four dimensions such as "hue", "saturation" and "brightness". Take note that such classification theories don't explain the nature, the causes or the underlying processes of emotions in the same way that "hue" or "brightness" don't say anything about the nature of colour (e.g. about the electromagnetic spectrum etc.). There are different theories for that and i'm not willing to explain them here! Most modern theories though agree that emotions are comprised by "biological/autonomic arousal", "affective states(feelings)" and "cognitive processes" (perception, interpretations). Some modern cognitive neuroscience/neuropsychology theories try to localise these levels on specific brain structures, e.g. arousal on the limbic system, interpretaions on frontal-lobe areas etc. i'm not going any further here as well!
So, "epic-trance is for people who haven't grow-up whereas (i assume?) house and techno are for mature individuals", that was indeed a very stupid statement lol!(sorry) and i hope that there is some humour going-on behind it...i personally like to selectively listen to some epic trance tracks (especially some older ones like "seven cities") and i can't see how i am immature for doing that (or some crackpot theory that i'm stuck to my childhood years or something lol).
nefardec
No, I'm talking about people who 'swear' by epic trance - as in that's the only thing they will listen to and will defend it to the end.
I think a broader taste in music is a sign of maturity because it usually implies a broader range of emotions with more differences in subtlety.
obviously there is a lot of nostalgia going on. if you listen to seven cities now I don't think you can deny that (consciously or not) you're reliving past experiences.
and yes, there was a bit of humor (as there generally is in everything I say/do) in that statement.
