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Rwanda-1994, 800,000 killed. Why/how did this happend? (pg. 3)
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
It's interesting to note that most rich countries (well, the seven richest anyhow) never seem to leap into action whenever it's a major issue in Africa.
I've always wondered why, I read different books and what not with different explanations, some to do with racism, some that make the point of "what's in it for us?" but for the life of me I can't figure out why for any one reason why we don't try to "police" Africa quite the same way as we do the middle east/eastern europe etc.
I also can't help but feel that a large NATO presence in the worst parts of Africa would help, as the militias and militants the US + EU would be fighting would be vastly inferior to the well organized and well funded Taliban or Al Qaeda.
Not to say the African equivalents aren't funded or equipped at all, but they would probably lose a lot sooner, especially with help from the AU. Or maybe I'm wrong, who knows.
Maybe the real reason why we can't seem to turn most of Africa around is because it's just too huge a task to even fathom? |
It's a difficult question to grapple with. Undoubtedly if the international community pooled it's resources to tackle African conflicts with any sort of determination, a lot of things would be resolved. Problems would obviously still remain, but a lot of good could be accomplished. However, this isn't going to happen anytime soon.
There are a number of reasons I can think of, and self-interest certainly isn't the least important of those. The US experience in Somalia was a proverbial slap in the face. Citizens across the country demanded to know why US Marines were dying for African welfare, and why money continued to pour into humanitarian outreach in Mogadishu even as riots burned part of LA to the ground. It also plays a large role in why we don't get involved in places like Darfur. With economic linkages to the government of Sudan, and a crucial partnership in the War on Terror tenuously established, the United States actually stands to risk it's own interest by getting involved in a heavy-handed intervention in Darfur.
But there are other reasons as well. Intervention in Africa is generally frowned upon by Africans themselves, for many of the reasons our experience in Iraq is frowned-upon. What exit strategy exists for an intervention in a place where there is no real history of transparent governance? Will we inevitably have to rebuild society from the bottom up? How is that different than colonial domination? Africans fought tooth and nail for their independence, and many of those that sacrificed are still alive today - they are not eager to be "rescued" by the West. Advocating for an African solution to African problems will certainly take a lot of time, but there are plenty of critics that would rather wait for that sort of infrastructure to develop than rely once again on Western benevolence that they don't actually trust.
The institutional framework for intervening is also not fully developed. During the 1980's not a single humanitarian intervention was launched by the United States, United Nations, or any other external actor. After the fall of the Soviet Union the United Nations Security Council was left to seek out ways in which it remained relevant. Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali came up with his now-famous An Agenda For Peace, which promoted the use of the Security Council and the United Nations for peace-support operations worldwide. The establishment of the United Nations Peacekeeping Organization quickly followed, and a whole array of missions were soon approved. However, the expectations for success far outpaced the institutional capacity of the missions. Donor states lauded the idea of missions, and then failed to donate enough equipment, manpower, and money in order to fulfill mandates. Rough starts in early missions (Somalia, etc.) often led to general chastising of the entire UN system. It was immediately apparent that to not act would garner criticism, but to act insufficiently could potentially be even more damaging to the legitimacy of the Security Council. So the number of approved missions declined through the 90's.
Today more emphasis is placed on regional bodies (NATO, the AU, ASEAN, ECOWAS, etc.). However, the capacity for these organizations to undertake missions varies widely, and the pros and cons of regional missions as opposed to truly international ones are well documented. The AU has had some success in small peacekeeping missions, but to implement a peace where one does not exist and then monitor it's success in a place as large as Darfur or the DRC is highly unrealistic - especially when considering the poverty of many AU donor states (as it is right now something like 90% of the AU budget is paid by only 7 of the 53 member states). Resources also remain an issue.
So as the international system develops to address the problems it seeks to address, there is a lot of confusion over who exactly is responsible for what. I think this is a product of the whole endeavor being relatively new - any new operation has some logistical kinks that need to be worked out. Hopefully this will happen sooner rather than later.
Another thing that should be mentioned is that peacekeeping missions gain more notoriety for their successes than their failures. People know of Rwanda and Darfur of course, but they may not know of successful missions elsewhere.
So yeah, that's a fairly rambling answer to your rhetorical question. :p |
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| Alex |
Well, there are plenty of resources in Africa.
But I just don't think many rich nations even have a "plan" so to speak to build Africa up, again, it's a "where do we even start?" sort of situation.
Iraq is a country of what, 23 million people? With ok infrastructure and ample resources to (one day) sustain itself.
Africa is an entire continent and I'd say 80% of it has seen its fair share of atrocities. |
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| woscar99 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I got to spend an entire day with the man that movie is about. One of the most humbling experiences of my life. |
WOW, that must have been awesome. These are the people that really affect your life in a positive way.
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
I've always wondered why, I read different books and what not with different explanations, some to do with racism, some that make the point of "what's in it for us?" but for the life of me I can't figure out why for any one reason why we don't try to "police" Africa quite the same way as we do the middle east/eastern europe etc.
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Oil |
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| chrisday |
I was in Cambodia a couple of months back, and what happened with Pol Pot and the khmer rouge was pretty horrific.. Killing millions of innoncent people who were educated!! Some of the conditions were horrific.
I was always remember walking out of S21 prison and the killing fields feeling pretty ty only for our tuk tuk driver with a big grin across his face asking us if we wanted prostitutes or to fire guns..... |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by woscar99
Oil |
Proven oil reserves (in billions of barrels)
Iraq -- 78
Nigeria -- 35
Angola - 25
Algeria -- 11
Sudan -- 7
The difference is substantial, but I don't think oil is the entire picture. When you think about the cost of an intervention, the cost in a place like Iraq is a lot higher than in say, Angola. |
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| Alex |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
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Good post.
I think we more or less agree, the task is simply too great and would not gain enough support here.
Also, the only fathomable option is for Africa to fly under one flag so to speak and operate the entire continent as a police state, but with the succesful South Africa still around that would never happen. |
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| denys envy |
| Speaking of Africa, World Cup is 2 years away... sorry, thought I'd brighten up the thread a bit. |
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| Dilmeet |
| quote: | Originally posted by chrisday
I was in Cambodia a couple of months back, and what happened with Pol Pot and the khmer rouge was pretty horrific.. Killing millions of innoncent people who were educated!! Some of the conditions were horrific.
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My friend's grandma was a constituent of modern Cambodia. Her grandma's sister witnessed her own kids getting tied up and thrown into a river. She committed suicide. This was all because she was a university teacher. |
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| guerra-monstru |
| quote: | Originally posted by noikeee
You're raising a good point there.
A cynical would say maybe this is because of the lack of resources Africa has to offer, compared to Iraq, for example. |
Africa may not have a lot of oil but they do have a lot of other resources. Human beings being one of them. The second is the fact that the democratic republic of Congo has 23trillion dollars worth of natural resources. One of the biggest in the world. |
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| Alex |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
Africa may not have a lot of oil but they do have a lot of other resources. Human beings being one of them. The second is the fact that the democratic republic of Congo has 23trillion dollars worth of natural resources. One of the biggest in the world. |
Uranium right?
I mean, who needs that anyway :p |
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| guerra-monstru |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
Uranium right?
I mean, who needs that anyway :p |
It does but also gold and platnium and other crap. Basically it is a rich country and should be one of the richest, the only problem is gov instability and not enough foreign investors. |
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| biznology |
| quote: | Originally posted by RickyM
It was all started due to the belgians dividing the people when they colonized the country, into Tutsi and Hutu, due to minor physical differences. The Tutsi were typically taller, with lighter skin and longer noses.
With this sort of situation, it was only really a matter of time before something happenned...the indifference from the developed world was truly sad.
If you want to know more you should read the book by Romeo Dallaire (the General in charge of the impotent UN force sent into Rwanda). It's called 'Shake Hands with the Devil'. The film 'Shooting Dogs' is quite good too, as is 'Hotel Rwanda'. |
tis true. the main issue is tribalism and the creation of groups due to european colonization. most the the differences are entirely transparent and due to a power vaccuum, the international community is accountable to be sure, but the differences between the Hutus and Tutsi were largely marginal at best. it was more often a wrong time, wrong place for most| |
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