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Feminists (pg. 2)
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Actually, I think that once you work on those inequalities I mentioned, many (if not most) of these problems will also be indirectly improved. |
that depends on what countries we're talking about. perhaps in the US a greater level of gender equality would lower poverty, but perfect equality in sudan would mean what exactly? everyone has the right to starve? or get shot?
its why i have such an issue with some feminists; as if the middle-class white women they represent have it so damn tough when compared to women in saudi arabia. now that's the kind of inequality i see as a real issue.
in the liberal democracies, the issues of sexism and racism are a matter of personal problems - laws are now in place to protect people, but you can't legislate personal opinion, so such issues will always exist. How does the corporate executive with a vagina have a right to complain about inequality when compared to a burmese man? Its ridiculous.
Economic inequality and political persecution will always be more important than sexism or racism.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Once you take down these artificial barriers between the peoples, economy will certainly benefit, for example. I'm really referring to those problems in a broad sense. |
but the core root of economic problems aren't racism or sexism or nationalism, though of course they will often overlap.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
If anything, maybe the environment is the only problem that is completely unrelated to what I mentioned. And that's why I said:
and not
:) |
yeah, but i think i could go on all day about relative inequalities that are more important than the ones you mentioned. Especially feminism. Feminism is a ing advanced economy luxury. |
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| AustralianGQ |
| woman still dont have equal rights, woman get paid less while doing the same job a man is doing, thats not right....woman should make the same. and many men in our society look down upon woman and crack jokes when they dont deserve it. it happens here on these forums. |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by AustralianGQ
woman still dont have equal rights, woman get paid less while doing the same job a man is doing, thats not right....woman should make the same. and many men in our society look down upon woman and crack jokes when they dont deserve it. it happens here on these forums. |
O voice of reason |
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| lücid |
| quote: | Originally posted by AustralianGQ
woman still dont have equal rights, woman get paid less while doing the same job a man is doing, thats not right....woman should make the same. and many men in our society look down upon woman and crack jokes when they dont deserve it. it happens here on these forums. |
even women look down upon and crack jokes about other women.
or guys that wear womens jeans. |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by lücid
even women look down upon and crack jokes about other women.
or guys that wear womens jeans. |
:stongue: :stongue: :stongue: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by AustralianGQ
woman still dont have equal rights, woman get paid less while doing the same job a man is doing, thats not right....woman should make the same. |
youre an idiot.
Firstly, australia, the US or canada have pay equity acts. Women might earn less generally than men, but they don’t get paid less for doing the same job. This myth pisses me off, as do idiots like you that don't know what they're talking about. There isnt some BS law (like there used to be) that said a woman's time was worth 60% of a man's wage.
Any differential in pay scales is related to the individual payment contracts.
| quote: | Originally posted by AustralianGQ
and many men in our society look down upon woman and crack jokes when they dont deserve it. it happens here on these forums. |
yeah, like you when you call them whores and bitches for daring to have sex. hypocritical wit. |
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| Ania_xox |
WARNING: LONG POST
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Mary Wollstonecraft |
I always admired your diligence in linguistics and now I think you're all the more super duper.
A Vindication of the Rights of Woman
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext02/vorow10.txt
(for the one or two people who will possibly look at this - the text actually starts after the brief sketch of Wollstonecraft's life)
My fave quotes:
"Yet, because I am a woman, I would not lead my readers to suppose,
that I mean violently to agitate the contested question respecting
the equality and inferiority of the sex; but as the subject lies in
my way, and I cannot pass it over without subjecting the main
tendency of my reasoning to misconstruction, I shall stop a moment
to deliver, in a few words, my opinion. In the government of the
physical world, it is observable that the female, in general, is
inferior to the male. The male pursues, the female yields--this is
the law of nature; and it does not appear to be suspended or
abrogated in favour of woman. This physical superiority cannot be
denied--and it is a noble prerogative! But not content with this
natural pre-eminence, men endeavour to sink us still lower, merely
to render us alluring objects for a moment; and women, intoxicated
by the adoration which men, under the influence of their senses,
pay them, do not seek to obtain a durable interest in their hearts,
or to become the friends of the fellow creatures who find amusement
in their society."
"Women are, in fact, so much degraded by mistaken notions of female
excellence, that I do not mean to add a paradox when I assert, that
this artificial weakness produces a propensity to tyrannize, and
gives birth to cunning, the natural opponent of strength, which
leads them to play off those contemptible infantile airs that
undermine esteem even whilst they excite desire. Do not foster
these prejudices, and they will naturally fall into their
subordinate, yet respectable station in life."
"It seems scarcely necessary to say, that I now speak of the sex in
general. Many individuals have more sense than their male
relatives; and, as nothing preponderates where there is a constant
struggle for an equilibrium, without it has naturally more gravity,
some women govern their husbands without degrading themselves,
because intellect will always govern."
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i wrote my honours dissertation on feminism, and despite how i may behave, consider myself quite the feminist. |
Same :D though mine was deeply rooted in the poetry of Anne Sexton and its various speculations on feminism as it relates to cultural theory.
I would honestly love to read yours. PM??? |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
Same :D though mine was deeply rooted in the poetry of Anne Sexton and its various speculations on feminism as it relates to cultural theory.
I would honestly love to read yours. PM??? |
sure, if you don't mind reading some leftist nonsense from almost a decade ago. ill send it when i get home. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
that depends on what countries we're talking about. perhaps in the US a greater level of gender equality would lower poverty, but perfect equality in sudan would mean what exactly? everyone has the right to starve? or get shot? |
This is why I mentioned "nationalism". If Darfur were located just 300 kilometres north of Perth, don't you think the Australian government would've done something? This idea that a certain group is "another group" is at the root of most of our social problems. I'm well aware that this is a utopia of mine, but I really think that, if there were a world democracy, these problems could be solved a lot more effectively.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
its why i have such an issue with some feminists; as if the middle-class white women they represent have it so damn tough when compared to women in saudi arabia. now that's the kind of inequality i see as a real issue.
in the liberal democracies, the issues of sexism and racism are a matter of personal problems - laws are now in place to protect people, but you can't legislate personal opinion, so such issues will always exist. How does the corporate executive with a vagina have a right to complain about inequality when compared to a burmese man? Its ridiculous. |
My ideas against nationalism still can still be applied in this case - if there were no military junta, and companies had the opportunity to invest in Burma, don't you think Burmese men would soon have more opportunities in life? The reason why we so-called 3rd world exploited countries are rising is because we're now profiting from liberalism as well. Personally, I can't see how nationalism doesn't limit liberalism.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
but the core root of economic problems aren't racism or sexism or nationalism, though of course they will often overlap. |
Well, I may be exagerating, but I'd like to hear what the core root would then be :)
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
yeah, but i think i could go on all day about relative inequalities that are more important than the ones you mentioned. Especially feminism. Feminism is a ing advanced economy luxury. |
When 50% of the world is left behind, I really can't see how we can go ahead. |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
its why i have such an issue with some feminists; as if the middle-class white women they represent have it so damn tough when compared to women in saudi arabia. now that's the kind of inequality i see as a real issue. |
Problem is a number of things there at the inequality in those countries is related mostly to cultural and religious dogma's which are a prickly subject when it comes to change.
Don't get me wrong, I think its complete crap and I'd not shed any tears if all the clerics and wife beaters where stuck in a trench and hosed down with a machine gun.
But, I'm neither able to affect it, is it really my place in the world to dictate what other people's cultures and religions should do?
I really don't think that's what my place is with my current social liberties and economic status is for, it's more a case of maintaining what we have in those luxuries and if others want to achieve that result its really up to them.
Because it won't be seen as 'charitable' to go barging in like a certain retarded male american with their army to 'bring democracy' to the heathens... we all know what comes of that.
Contempt, repression, warfare and exploitation
Democracy and Equality are earned and maintained by ones own hands, not enforced by outsiders
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Firstly, australia, the US or canada have pay equity acts. Women might earn less generally than men, but they don’t get paid less for doing the same job. This myth pisses me off, as do idiots like you that don't know what they're talking about. There isnt some BS law (like there used to be) that said a woman's time was worth 60% of a man's wage.
Any differential in pay scales is related to the individual payment contracts. |
They're also limited by education and the job itself. Before I began working for myself there was a number of glass ceilings I bounced off before I gave up. About 50k a year as a beauty therapist, 80k as a minor/assistant executive and about 110k a year as a sales person/group trainer, neither where going to cover what I wanted, what I thought I was worth so I work for myself and make a lot more.
The biggest problem here though, for both sexes is that for the majority of people who want the big dollars is that they don't deserve it and they're not worth it in the marketplace.
If you pick an occupation which doesn't pay what 'you' think you're worth and what you want to spend annually then you're really only making your own problems.
Nobody is entitled to anything, you have to work and earn it. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
This is why I mentioned "nationalism". If Darfur were located just 300 kilometres north of Perth, don't you think the Australian government would've done something? This idea that a certain group is "another group" is at the root of most of our social problems. I'm well aware that this is a utopia of mine, but I really think that, if there were a world democracy, these problems could be solved a lot more effectively. |
there are less nationalistic problems between peoples when they have food to eat, water to drink and varied parties to vote for.
if you notice i specifically left nationalism out of my commentary, because i agree that its a massive issue. much more so than sexism.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
My ideas against nationalism still can still be applied in this case - if there were no military junta, and companies had the opportunity to invest in Burma, don't you think Burmese men would soon have more opportunities in life? The reason why we so-called 3rd world exploited countries are rising is because we're now profiting from liberalism as well. Personally, I can't see how nationalism doesn't limit liberalism. |
again, this thread is about sexism :p im not sure that the military ruling class in burma can be so easily dismissed as just another "nationalist" group, though totalitarianism and nationalism do like to go hand in hand...
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Well, I may be exagerating, but I'd like to hear what the core root would then be :) |
*dons his university hat*
the ownership & distribution of the means of resources ;) autocratic governments.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
When 50% of the world is left behind, I really can't see how we can go ahead. |
The woman who couldn’t vote or stand for parliament in australia before 1907 were still much freer than many men remain today. I think we're kinda on two different topics here. I find contemporary western feminism to be a bit of a joke, but if we're talking about the brutal subjugation of women by oppressive male overlords in countries like saudi, then of course you have my 100% agreeance.
What I don't like having to swallow is western women crying as if they've got it tough, or stupid lesbians getting thousands of dollars just because they were refused the ing bathroom.
Women in advanced economies have never had it better. |
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