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Macedonia vs. Greece
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| ManiX |
who do you believe?
both sides say that Alexander The Great i theirs...
both sides say that the other one hasn't got history...
???????? |
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| Lira |
If China can have a region called "Inner Mongolia" and accept Mongolia as an independent country, I don't see why Macedonia can't be the same (i.e. the name of a region in Greece and a distinct country).
:conf: |
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| George Smiley |
| Eh? Macedonia didn't even qualify? Is this for the World Cup qualifiers in September?? |
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| Magnetonium |
Greece is a focking crybaby. They refuse to allow Macedonia into NATO over a NAME, for Christ's sake. They demand Macedonia to change its name. Thats lame. It was never a problem before (like when Macedonia was becoming a new country 15 or so years ago) ... now all of a sudden its important. WTF?
When in reality, Macedonia has no interest/desire to take any of Greek territory, it has enough internal problems (those ethnic Albanians, you know ...)
They (Macedonia, the country) have shared history with Greece, and Greeks need to get on with it and get over it. |
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| Krypton |
| Can't we all just get along? |
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| ManiX |
| i'm a Macedonian...and i totally agree with u guys...but i'll tell u that greeks are scared of all that stuff that u said...but also because there are old citizens here in Macedonia that have documents about teritory in greece...so the thing is that greece has to pay around 1,5-2 billion dollars to citizens who have this kind of documents to buy them out...and the deal that was made in 1912 to separate Macedonia...it wasn't made to last forever...just for 100 years...so according to that...Greece gas to give back the teritory that she took in 1912...and the only reason now that we're not in NATO or EU...is not because of all these facts...but because they hate as...and we hate them... |
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| Konijn |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
It was never a problem before (like when Macedonia was becoming a new country 15 or so years ago) ... now all of a sudden its important. WTF? |
the 'fyrom' debates were actually far broader and more heated than the nato/eu stuff today.
| quote: | Originally posted by ManiX
..but also because there are old citizens here in Macedonia that have documents about teritory in greece...so the thing is that greece has to pay around 1,5-2 billion dollars to citizens who have this kind of documents to buy them out. |
yes, and unicorn tears heal all ailments. |
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| ManiX |
| what i meant...is havin a small property in some cities...not the whole teritory...and on those documents is written MACEDONIA...not FYROM or greece... |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Konijn
the 'fyrom' debates were actually far broader and more heated than the nato/eu stuff today.
yes, and unicorn tears heal all ailments. |
Konijn, could you give your point of view on this issue? :) |
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| Konijn |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Konijn, could you give your point of view on this issue? :) |
lol - i'd rather not, as i find these debates (and i use the term loosely) to be pointless and circular.
but...
i will say that nationalism, broadly construed, has wrought much of the world's ills during the past 200 years precicely because it's used as means of masking a country's internal problems, distracting its citizenry and creating tenuous national narratives.
both greece and macedonia are using the language of nationalism and culture to lay claim to some wider political truths, albeit for different reasons.
macedonia is young, developing and globally insecure so this 'naming' quest is designed to link a diverse group of slavs to an imagined -- and singular -- past, thus creating a unified whole today (lira, i know you study japan, so this is very similar to what happened under the meiji restoration during its modernization project). for greece, which is plagued perpetually by a weak economy and internecine political problems, the whole issue is nothing more than a distraction and a way of settling possible minor territorial claims in the future.
the real loser in this is alexander 'the great' (or 'the accursed', as persians call him) who has now become a historical hand-puppet for both sides: greeks refuse to acknowledge his slavic lineage and macedonians refuse to acknowledge that the guy embraced everything greek (including the language) and did more to spread hellenic culture and philosophy around the world than anyone in history.
benedict anderson's Imagined Communities is a fantastic book (and required reading in most 1st year graduate seminars or colloquia) that wonderfully deconstructs the nature of nationalism. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Konijn
the 'fyrom' debates were actually far broader and more heated than the nato/eu stuff today.
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Pardon me, but I am having difficulties finding the material to support this. |
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| Konijn |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Pardon me, but I am having difficulties finding the material to support this. |
what exactly are you looking up? in '92 i was old enough to be reading newspapers, journal mags and attending talks on the subject and remember that the greek protestations were far more vocal as this was the period when maps -- among other things -- were being re-drawn and macedonia was making its first appearance. there was drama regarding everything from the manner in which the name macedonia would appear on maps, to its legal borders (serbs and bulgarians had an interest in this too), and even to its appropriation of the vergina star as the national flag.
common sense would indicate that the actual creation and recognition of a controversial country would be more contentious than its admittance to something like the eu. absent that, run a lexis-nexis search or something. |
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