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Cartoon ruling may prompt 'Islamophobia' (pg. 2)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
while that is true, i suspect the number of muslims born in europe is smaller than the number of muslims in europe born elsewhere. In any event, it is still not the same because muslims have a very short history in europe and they are unwelcome by many in europe. African americans, on the other hand, have a longer history in the US than most whites, and were not only welcome in the US, but forced to come to the US. |
I doubt very much that more Muslims living in Europe were born outside of Europe than those born in Europe
| quote: | | Focusing on whether the term 'go back' can logically occur is missing the point. The point is that muslims have consistently shown (at least the protesting kind) that their lifestyles and values are incompatible with westerners. If they are so unhappy at our social values and laws they shouldn't protest our traditions, rather, they should go where their values are prevalent. God forbid we protest something that is fundamental to muslims (even in our own countries); that would be a violation of human rights. However, we are supposed to be sensitive to their rights. I say, off! It's hypocrisy at its finest. |
So nobody should have the right to protest against a government following your logic? Should the Americans in the 1700s have ed off back to England if they wanted representation? Nobody in the world thinks the society they live in is perfect, if they don't like it, should they " off somewhere else"? Every country has racists in that hate people from different countries/skin colour/cultures - hardly compatible with liberalism is it? Should they " off to another country"?
Besides, you're daft comments fly in the face of national immigration policies - you assume people have the right to live anywhere they want to in the world, they don't
If you are a citizen of a country, then that is all that matters, you have as much right to protest against your government as everyone else
In fact, considering the fact you are basically supporting ethnically cleansing all western countries of Muslims, perhaps you should off to Nazi Germany because your views are not compatible with "western" ideals either, are they? |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I doubt very much that more Muslims living in Europe were born outside of Europe than those born in Europe
So nobody should have the right to protest against a government following your logic? Should the Americans in the 1700s have ed off back to England if they wanted representation? Nobody in the world thinks the society they live in is perfect, if they don't like it, should they " off somewhere else"? Every country has racists in that hate people from different countries/skin colour/cultures - hardly compatible with liberalism is it? Should they " off to another country"? |
of course people should have the right to protest. It's their hypocrisy that i have problems with. If they want to protest fine, just don't get all pissy when we protest mohammed, or wearing burkas in schools.
EDIT: sorry, i don't think i made that clear previously.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Besides, you're daft comments fly in the face of national immigration policies - you assume people have the right to live anywhere they want to in the world, they don't |
not really. as i said before, i assume that most muslims (specifically protesting ones) in europe are not from europe originally (which could be incorrect).
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
If you are a citizen of a country, then that is all that matters, you have as much right to protest against your government as everyone else |
i agree - but now you are assuming that all protestors are citizens. for some reason i highly doubt that. i think muslims who are citizens of european countries would be more moderate, thus sharing our values of free speech, and less likely to protest cartoons (i could be offbase here, but it seems logical to me).
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
In fact, considering the fact you are basically supporting ethnically cleansing all western countries of Muslims, perhaps you should off to Nazi Germany because your views are not compatible with "western" ideals either, are they? |
yeah, that's exactly what i implied. :rolleyes: |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
of course people should have the right to protest. It's their hypocrisy that i have problems with. If they want to protest fine, just don't get all pissy when we protest mohammed, or wearing burkas in schools. |
You're doing exactly the same!
| quote: | | not really. as i said before, i assume that most muslims (specifically protesting ones) in europe are not from europe originally (which could be incorrect). |
Could be correct?! Almost definitely incorrect more like! Where did you even get this idea from in the first place?!
| quote: | | i agree - but now you are assuming that all protestors are citizens. for some reason i highly doubt that. i think muslims who are citizens of european countries would be more moderate. |
And how exactly have you come to any of those conclusions!? It tends to be the older generation (who actually were born outside Europe) that are the more moderate, and the younger generation that tends to be more radical
| quote: | | yeah, that's exactly what i implied. :rolleyes: |
You think they should all get back to where they came from, that's a pretty racist remark to come out with pal |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You're doing exactly the same! |
oh yeah, when exactly was i being hypocritical? they want to exercise their rights to free speech by protesting, then don't threaten to kill us when we exercise our rights of free speech by making little cartoons. where is the hypocrisy?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Could be correct?! Almost definitely incorrect more like! Where did you even get this idea from in the first place?! |
i said 'could be incorrect'
i thought i read it somewhere, that's why i didn't provide support for the claim, because i'm not entirely confident in it.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And how exactly have you come to any of those conclusions!? It tends to be the older generation (who actually were born outside Europe) that are the more moderate, and the younger generation that tends to be more radical |
because it goes the exact opposite way in the US. Older generations are more conservative and younger generations are more moderate/liberal.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You think they should all get back to where they came from, that's a pretty racist remark to come out with pal |
besides the fact that i didn't say they should go back to where they came from, i don't think that saying they (meaning protestors and those threatening to kill a cartoonist) should go somewhere with shared valued is at all racist. besides, muslim isn't a race; so it can't be racist. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
oh yeah, when exactly was i being hypocritical? they want to exercise their rights to free speech by protesting, then don't threaten to kill us when we exercise our rights of free speech by making little cartoons. where is the hypocrisy? |
The hypocrisy is where you want them deported for also exercising their right to free speech/protest!
| quote: | | i said 'could be incorrect' |
And I also meant to say "incorrect" in your quote
| quote: | | i thought i read it somewhere, that's why i didn't provide support for the claim, because i'm not entirely confident in it |
Well I would say you have to divide the Muslim population between first generation immigrants (from the 50s-70s) who will now be pensioners, their children/grandchildren and current immigrants/asylum seekers. The older generation is, imo, very unlikely to be involved in any of these protests etc (and are the group that will be most opposed to that way of thinking/acting). The younger European-born generation obviously were born here and are citizens here, and that probably gives them more encouragement to protest because, they have the civil right to! I don't know about asylum seekers, I suppose they could go either way - either keep their heads down and try to fit in like the first generation immigrants, or maybe they are asylum seekers because they are radical? I suspect the latter to be in the minority.
Either way, because of the birth rates of Muslims in Europe, there will definitely be more offspring from the first generation Muslims than first generation Muslims themselves, and obviously it's not easy for non-EU citizens to immigrate to the EU, as there are restrictions, so I doubt very very much whether they make up anywhere near as many Europe-born Muslims (not including the 70 million Turkish people who, being born in Turkey which is in Europe, would completely disprove your figures as there are only 15 million Muslims in the EU ;))
| quote: | | because it goes the exact opposite way in the US. Older generations are more conservative and younger generations are more moderate/liberal. |
But you can easily add "radical" onto that list for young people no? In fact I would agree that the same is in Europe with Muslim communities, but you're confusing "conservative" with "religious fundamentalism", the former being cultural, the latter being alien to the older generations' culture and therefore, not "conservative" at all!
| quote: | | besides the fact that i didn't say they should go back to where they came from, i don't think that saying they (meaning protestors and those threatening to kill a cartoonist) should go somewhere with shared valued is at all racist. besides, muslim isn't a race; so it can't be racist. |
And which country should the millions of American far right racists relocate to?
See, it's silly when you turn it around isn't it? |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
The Danish cartoon protesters, and their supporters around the world, are a bunch of idiots. I think religion should be criticised as it is cultural, and culture should also be criticised (hell, we do enough of criticising American culture around the world don't we?). If the criticism is valid, as criticism against the Danish protesters is, then I have no problem with that. But it has to be specific and valid. You can't use the experience of the Danish protesters, as some do, to speak out against Muslims in general. There is a fear of Muslims, understandably or not, that rose up following 9/11. Too many people see all Muslims as potential terrorists these days and it drives a wedge between populations that have had no problems whatsoever and I think that contributes somewhat to the radicalisation of youngsters from Muslim communities (the fundies can say to them - look, these people hate you, join us - etc) |
I for one can say this....
I can't stand fundies weather they are Islamic, christian or what ever....
that I will agree with you Jorge. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
The hypocrisy is where you want them deported for also exercising their right to free speech/protest! |
i never said deport them. i don't want them deported on the basis of protests because i freely believe in free speech. however, i would rather they not come into our countries to begin with (meaning muslims who don't believe in our values - muslims that accept our society for what it is are more than acceptable). For those who are already here (meaning born in the US/western europe) they have every right to protest and i see nothing wrong with it. my problem is people who come hear knowing what we believe, and then protest against a fundamental right of our society, which may be partly the reason for their emmigration from their respective countries in the first place.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And I also meant to say "incorrect" in your quote
Well I would say you have to divide the Muslim population between first generation immigrants (from the 50s-70s) who will now be pensioners, their children/grandchildren and current immigrants/asylum seekers. The older generation is, imo, very unlikely to be involved in any of these protests etc (and are the group that will be most opposed to that way of thinking/acting). The younger European-born generation obviously were born here and are citizens here, and that probably gives them more encouragement to protest because, they have the civil right to! I don't know about asylum seekers, I suppose they could go either way - either keep their heads down and try to fit in like the first generation immigrants, or maybe they are asylum seekers because they are radical? I suspect the latter to be in the minority.
Either way, because of the birth rates of Muslims in Europe, there will definitely be more offspring from the first generation Muslims than first generation Muslims themselves, and obviously it's not easy for non-EU citizens to immigrate to the EU, as there are restrictions, so I doubt very very much whether they make up anywhere near as many Europe-born Muslims (not including the 70 million Turkish people who, being born in Turkey which is in Europe, would completely disprove your figures as there are only 15 million Muslims in the EU ;)) |
im not really knowledgeable on muslims in europe...i probably should have made remarks without those assumptions.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
But you can easily add "radical" onto that list for young people no? In fact I would agree that the same is in Europe with Muslim communities, but you're confusing "conservative" with "religious fundamentalism", the former being cultural, the latter being alien to the older generations' culture and therefore, not "conservative" at all! |
valid point - i didn't look at it from the prospective. I guess mostly because radical religious fundamentalism isn't really a concern among youths in america - at least not where i live. and in radical religious sects in the US the biggest harm is having multiple wives and child abuse. the danger is not really imposed on society as much as it is on the members of the religious sect.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And which country should the millions of American far right racists relocate to?
See, it's silly when you turn it around isn't it? |
the underlying assumption of my argument is that the protesting muslims are immigrants. if that doesn't hold true, then i don't think they need to go anywhere. as i said above, i have an issue when people come to a country and then protest against a tenent of the society. with respect to far right americans, they are not immigrants, so i don't suggest they go anywhere. unfortunately for me, i may be in the minority being neither conservative nor liberal. perhaps i should off somewhere, perhaps luxembourg or switzerland where it's all about money. ;) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
i never said deport them. i don't want them deported on the basis of protests because i freely believe in free speech. however, i would rather they not come into our countries to begin with (meaning muslims who don't believe in our values - muslims that accept our society for what it is are more than acceptable). For those who are already here (meaning born in the US/western europe) they have every right to protest and i see nothing wrong with it. my problem is people who come hear knowing what we believe, and then protest against a fundamental right of our society, which may be partly the reason for their emmigration from their respective countries in the first place...
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the underlying assumption of my argument is that the protesting muslims are immigrants |
Well I don't know about Muslims in Denmark but 40% of them are asylum seekers, meaning 60% are Danish citizens - whether they were born there I don't know. Denmark's first wave of Islamic immigration came in the early 70s according to Wikipedia (!) but this was halted in 1973, so you have a band of 3 years, over 30 years ago, so I should imagine there are a great deal of Danish born Muslims in the country right now. I'm having difficulty finding pictures of the protests that took place actually in Denmark, but it'd be interesting to see how many of the protesters looked 30 yrs old or under. I think many people would agree that asylum seekers should show a bit of respect and gratitude to their hosts, but at the same time, they shouldn't have to be treated as second class citizens and if they want to take part in protests then that is also their right (as hypocritical as that may be)
| quote: | | if that doesn't hold true, then i don't think they need to go anywhere. as i said above, i have an issue when people come to a country and then protest against a tenent of the society. with respect to far right americans, they are not immigrants, so i don't suggest they go anywhere. |
Not true. They are descendants of immigrants so they could off to England, Ireland or Germany (preferably Germany) |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Not true. They are descendants of immigrants so they could off to England, Ireland or Germany (preferably Germany) |
;) 'descendant of' and immigrant are not the same thing. |
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| jerZ07002 |
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/5674...74FC6B9CADF7309
protestors in london - it's so hard to tell with all the damn hair.
i haven't been able to think of many things recently that make me glad i live in the US, until i saw this image. I'd rather be anywhere other than trafalgar square full of angry muslims (unrightfully so - i might add)
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| George Smiley |
| Well I feel I'm very qualified to talk about British Muslims and the extreme elements of those communities, and I would say the vast majority are young, British-born citizens. However, I wanted to see pictures in Denmark as that's what you were talking about. I also searched but +Danish +Cartoon +Protests just brings up pictures from all over the world, except Denmark! |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Well I feel I'm very qualified to talk about British Muslims and the extreme elements of those communities, and I would say the vast majority are young, British-born citizens. However, I wanted to see pictures in Denmark as that's what you were talking about. I also searched but +Danish +Cartoon +Protests just brings up pictures from all over the world, except Denmark! |
i did the same thing - lebanon, iraq, turkey, blah blah blah. |
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