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Protools (pg. 2)
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| cryophonik |
I picked up an MBox2 Mini a few weeks ago with PT LE 7.4 and I have to say that it is better in its MIDI implementation than I expected based on reviews I've heard. I'm primarily a Sonar, Project5, and Cubase user (yes, all legally attained), but I bought the MBox for my laptop for mobile tracking. I've spent quite a bit of time going through the tutorials and was expecting the MIDI implementation to be total crap, but it's actually not so bad, although a different workflow than I'm used to. Also, the GUI is butt-ugly and painful to look at in low ambient light settings, but that's a personal preference thing.
So, I won't be switching to it as my primary DAW, but to (finally) getting around to addressing the OP's questions, there's no reason you couldn't produce trance or any other form of electronica in PT, but since you've already got Cubase, Reason, and PT, you should just spend some time with each, figure which workflow suits you best, and go with it. Reason is particularly nice because you can rewire into the other hosts, so it's definitely worth your time to get familiar with it.
And, anyone who tells you that you "should" be using Ableton is an idiot and "shouldn't" be listened to. That would be like me telling you that you "should" be driving a minivan. That's not a knock against Ableton, which is an excellent program, but simply pointing out that only you can determine which DAW or vehicle is right for you. |
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| csfp |
@ Lolo : :eek: :eek: :eek:
And I regretted wasting 2k for a Vsynth GT and buying two UAD-1 cards few months back for a full price ... I haven't used PT but after your post I don't wanna even try :eek: |
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| atxbigballer1 |
| I own Protools M-powerd its okay! Protools was my first DAW, not any more I found Reaper! I use Protools for audio editing! Protools i think is over rated! |
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| UGH!!! |
| question for Lolo. what are you using today for producing? what kind of computer/software would you recommend for a beginnner in the trance world? |
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| Lolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by UGH!!!
question for Lolo. what are you using today for producing? what kind of computer/software would you recommend for a beginnner in the trance world? |
I'm probably not the best example when it comes to technology. I'm completely outdated, and most people on this forum have way more hardware and software than I do. I have no more hardware synths, and had to sell everything a while ago when I was running out of cash, again, and all I have are those two computers, a few midi keyboards, and my bx5's. As I said, not an example at all ;-)
What I'd suggest is a mac or a pc (depending on what you or your wallet like the most), preferably something simple, with a core2duo cpu, 2 gb memory or better, 4, and a big internal hard drive.
If I was young and had a little spare money, I'd go for an imac 20" or a macbook with BTO options such as 4 gb of Ram (pc shops are cheaper, don't buy them at the apple store), and most importantly, a 750gb internal drive (you can't install it on your own in the imac).
I'd run mac os and windows xp sp2 on two partitions. I'd put logic express on there, and last but not least, I'd get a one year subscription to Computer Music and install every single piece of pc software that comes free with it on the windows partition, so I'd get the best of both worlds.
But hey, I'm not a mac evangelist, and you can have the same results with a well-equipped pc, but I don't think for less money. A good mobo and again, intel processors are recommended. Same amount of ram.
If I had to choose a DAW, I'd go for... Cakewalk Sonar or FL Studio 8.
It's not which pc/os you're running that will make your music sound better. It's how you get your stuff organized and well stored on your hard drive.
For the little story, back when I started producing tracks on a pc (486DX with 8mb memory, 420mb HD, and a soundblaster as a midi interface/soundfont player with as much ram as my on my motherboard), I was using Cakewalk. It was my favourite sequencer for years, in my opinion way beyond cubase back in that time. Only when moving to the studio at the label I made the switch to a bigger computer running logic, and that was in 1999.
Cakewalk seems totally underrated nowadays, I think its concept is up-to-date.
I'm using Ableton Live too, but I wouldn't recommend it as your main DAW, because to reach the status of Live DAW, you'll have to spend too much money (700$ and more), which I did, and regret at times, due to the several bugs that analog still has, while it eats my cpu.
So, enough off-topic here, let's go back to trollpools ;-) |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lolo
It's a little off-topic, but I wanted to tell you this story.
I used to have a 50 000$+ protools mix rig with four Dsp cards and a ton of plugins. So I can share my experience with you.
It was at the end of 2001 and I was running Logic 4 on a Mac G4-400. I was getting a lot of money, so I had to invest in something that was supposed to last for years. I went the protools way, and was wrong...
First of all, for a question of taste, I didn't like the protools software at all, and never ever got used to it, so I was still using logic as a front end, which led to another purchase, ESB and EPIC TDM, two optional plug-ins from Emagic.
I started off with one mix card, which gave me the horsepower of... only 32 tracks of audio and 6 TDM plugins in total!! Not enough of course, so I had to buy another mix card ( 5k!!). Then I had 64 tracks and 20-30 plugins, which was ok as I was rendering all dry fx like eq, compressors, etc... offline thanks to audiosuite compatibiliy.
Then I had a problem with the protools drivers crashing logic, and didn't know how to solve it until I downgraded the software to 5.1.1... something even digi couldn't tell me!! Great when they're supposed to get paid a huge amount of money through their rigs!
I ended up with 4 cards as I could make a deal for an extra pair, and I had to buy a lot of plugins which cost me almost twice the price of the native version as that thing doesn't run tdm alongside with vst or Audiounit plugins. It's a selfish system that runs only TDM plugins in a front end other than protools!
My experience in IT led me to check those cards, how they were designed, looked at the freescale/motorola dsp's on there... and there it is: it cost them maybe 400 Euros for a tdm card while I paid 5 000 for it without any plugin, while I lost compatibility, time because of interleaved/split stereo conversion, all this without any kind of support from their end.
That's not it... In order to upgrade my plugins, Digidesign forced the use of an iLok dongle with future releases.
So, in 2004, when Digidesign dropped support of thousands of dollars investments by saying it wouldn't support the mix cards in os X... I gave up. I didn't want to upgrade to hd, because it would have set me 10k off, AGAIN.
I sold everything, including the computer that came with it. And I remember that Digidesign makes you pay 25 Euros for a license transfer PER plug-in/instrument. As I had dozens of them...
I'm still mad at Digi, but it was my mistake, I didn't have to start with TDM hardware.
So, now you understand my allergy to their software, although I admit that their Digi002/003 racks are incredibly rock solid and sound extremely good.
End of the too long story, but that was a little bit of info.
DO NOT BUY TDM HARDWARE, EVER!! I'd say that, but it's only my opinion.
Laurent |
Lolo, that's a real shame but you live and learn.
I will say however, whoever sold you that TDM system is a complete . I was working in the Pro Audio industry then and by mid August 2001 I got my pro tools HD Advisor training.
Unless that guy gave you serious warning about the new system (PTHD) and was cutting you an incredible deal (but 50k a PT mix system doesn't sound like a deal at that point), I would have burnt his shop down.
Looking at it historically, PT was the only even semi portable system that offered a real digital recording and editing solution, except the IZ radar systems which cost twice as much.
Kit, you don't know what you're talking about here.
I use Pro tools HD every day at work and for anything film, score, tracking, sampling, mixing etc, there really is nothing that can compete. PTHD allows so many possibilities that simple aren't included in Logic or Cubase. Yes, it's midi implementation horribly basic, but it's not a priority for that platform. it's just an extra if you need it.
It does work as a complete system, and support is good from digidesign - I won;t let them take all the credit though - One of the reasons their support is good is the sheer amount of people that use it and have found problems, which then are shared through digidesign, and they eventually fix.
Yes, PTHD does sound good in terms of sonic quality - it's a professional system, but the HD systems, even in their most basic and cheapest form are waaaaay overpriced. Many, many other manufacturers offer better DAC's and interfaces for a fraction of the relative cost, including Apogee, Lynx Prism etc.
The interface is ugly and at first looks so basic, but the reason for that is there can be so much information and options displayed on the screen at one time that I think it makes sense they kept it that way to stop fancy button, knob and slider designs from obscuring the task in hand.
PTHD drives me crazy sometimes, it's not without it's bugs, but nothing is as stable as a complete solution, offers the track count, the flexibility, the routing, the quality plugins, the processing power*, the ability to deliver huge files safely and quickly...the list goes on.
The main issue I have with it is the cost vs performance, and the way that DD keeps screwing you. $25 for license transfers? Even if your ILOK fails (and you don't have their expensive insurance plan).
They make you pay for major updates. Plugins are great but seriously expensive. The hardware, even though it looks pretty and does work well, is badly overpriced for what it is, even second hand.
* - processing power is dependant on how many accel cards you have but also the computer you use, which again is going to be a very expensive mac.
For EDM, the only possible use I could think of would be for the mix down, which does actually happen and I know a few current EDM albums that have been produced this way. You might want to use it for tracking and comping live performances (vocals, guitars etc.) too, but other than that Cubase, logic et al lend their systems much better for the specific needs of EDM. |
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| kitphillips |
Good to hear some different experiences from people.
Lolo, thats a terrible situation, really poor show from digi doing that to you.
Rann, I've never used HD systems, but I know that LE can't do anything that cubase or even ableton can't do better, except adding automatic crossfades in the audio, which I'll admit is very conveniant. I also think their support is e, who else makes you pay for .1 upgrades? PT is overpriced and underfeatured IMO.
The only reason PT is still used is that historically it was the only way to do digital audio, but computers are powerful enough now that its obsolete, the big studios just haven't realised it yet.
Eric, obviously what I'm saying is opinion, whats your point? You haven't used the software, I think if you had you'd know why I'm saying what I'm saying. The main problem with PT when I used it (which admittedly hasn't been for a while) was the lack of support for looping and timestretching in an easy way. That's one good reason why I don't like it. Also mate, track limits? Are you even thinking of that? Quite a lot of people use more than 32 tracks. And the fact that its bound to its hardware is even worse, it offers no advantages and your really showing your ignorance of the system by assuming it does quite frankly. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Good to hear some different experiences from people.
Lolo, thats a terrible situation, really poor show from digi doing that to you.
Rann, I've never used HD systems, but I know that LE can't do anything that cubase or even ableton can't do better, except adding automatic crossfades in the audio, which I'll admit is very conveniant. I also think their support is e, who else makes you pay for .1 upgrades? PT is overpriced and underfeatured IMO.
The only reason PT is still used is that historically it was the only way to do digital audio, but computers are powerful enough now that its obsolete, the big studios just haven't realised it yet.
Eric, obviously what I'm saying is opinion, whats your point? You haven't used the software, I think if you had you'd know why I'm saying what I'm saying. The main problem with PT when I used it (which admittedly hasn't been for a while) was the lack of support for looping and timestretching in an easy way. That's one good reason why I don't like it. Also mate, track limits? Are you even thinking of that? Quite a lot of people use more than 32 tracks. And the fact that its bound to its hardware is even worse, it offers no advantages and your really showing your ignorance of the system by assuming it does quite frankly. |
You raise some good points about LE - I can't actually think of anyyhting that LE can do that cubase or logic can't. LE really is only any good if your on a budget and just want to track your band.
Big studios rely on HD for a few reasons: it is very stable, it is very advanced for editing (creates individual regions and samples for every cut etc.), I don't think there are any sequencers that allow plugins to be applied to regions only, etc. etc., serious track counts upwards of 200 depnding on system.
Also, people who don't know (execs, some hip hop artists etc.) expect to see pro tools for them to recognise it as a bona fide studio - it's the stupidest thing but all too true. |
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| Eric J |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Eric, obviously what I'm saying is opinion, whats your point?
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My point is that statements such as this:
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
I think if you'd used it, you would know that it's simply not practical for EDM (or anything else really). |
are simply not true.
Frankly I was amazed that anyone could make the statement that ProTools is "not good for anything". This is blatantly false as others have pointed out.
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
You haven't used the software, I think if you had you'd know why I'm saying what I'm saying. The main problem with PT when I used it (which admittedly hasn't been for a while) was the lack of support for looping and timestretching in an easy way. That's one good reason why I don't like it.
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You are correct that lacking these features would make things harder when dealing with loop based music styles, such as EDM. This also assumes that it is required to use these features in order to make EDM, which it is not. It is nice to have, but certainly not a requirement. I, for one, rarely use loops on an audio track at all and when I do, I trigger them from EXS24. I also do my timestretching in Ableton, which provides far superior facilities for this kind of work.
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Also mate, track limits? Are you even thinking of that? Quite a lot of people use more than 32 tracks.
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This only applies to ProTools LE. In my opinion, anyone serious about working with ProTools needs to be using ProTools HD, not only for the track counts but for the DSP based properties of the package. That's part of the advantage of the ProTools system. The LE (Limitd Edition) version of the package is just digidesign's attempt to break into the hobbyist market in the hopes that the users will eventually upgrade to the full version.
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
And the fact that its bound to its hardware is even worse, it offers no advantages and your really showing your ignorance of the system by assuming it does quite frankly. |
It absolutely gives an advantage:
1. All processing is done on the Core/Accel cards, therefore having a souped up computer is not as necessary. You can run a state of the art ProTools system on a less than stellar computer because it uses very little native processing power. This removes the need to upgrade your DAW computer every few years, a problem those of us in the native world have all the time. Today, in 2008, a quad or octo core computer is state of the art and should give you all the processing power you need. However in 5 years, this is going the an underpowered machine. With a ProTools HD system, you are not required to upgrade your DAW host system as often as a native one.
2. Having the hardware and software come from the same place allow Digidesign to optimize the performance and stability of the system. Native systems are collections of cobbled together hardware and software and that introduces many, many variables that software and hardware developers have to work around in order to make sure their products work on as wide a variety of systems as possible. This compromises stability in a lot of situations, and for many people who work in the music industry, stability at high track counts is a major advantage.
Its the same reason why Apple developers have an easier time working with OSX, because they know the hardware that their software is going to be running on. Windows on the other hand is required to support thousands of different hardware configurations and that simply makes debugging and optimization that much more difficult.
Look, its obvious that you and I will never see eye to eye on this particular issue, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I agree with you on a lot of your points. I do think that the hardware is overpriced for what you get. Hell, the I/O interfaces are like 8 years old, and you can get much better quality interfaces for ProTools, or anything else, at a much lower price point. I also agree with you that the system is less than ideal for the types of music that are made by users on this forum. I'm just simply trying to make the point that ProTools CAN be used to make EDM. It might not be the BEST choice, but there are producers out there who use it and love it, and its up to each individual to choose the tools that suit them best. That's all I'm trying to say. |
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| kitphillips |
Right, so you just said that LE wasn't much cop and that anyone serious would use HD, the OP I'm pretty sure is using LE, so my advice has been right all along: LE is not practical cubase/ableton/whatever is more appropriate.
RE hardware
1/ you have to upgrade your pro tools hardware, so you DO have to upgrade, did you read Lolo? This winds up costing even more
2/ I don't have any stability problems on my PC, and thats using ableton. Its really not an issue, ASIO drivers are rock solid and used by more people than Digi drivers, so that might even be an advantage.
And yes I do agree with you that you CAN use it to make EDM, but I suppose I'm just saying that there are better optionss. A resourceful person can make something out of anything really.
@ Rann, yes thats all true and they are wonderful features, but I'm pretty sure you can apply plugins to single clips in cubase (or maybe sonar, can't remember) if thats really what you wanted to do. Maybe if you were doing stuff with > of 100 tracks, you might start looking at digi stuff because the track counts aren't bad its true, if you pay $50 000. I'm not sure whether cubase or sonar backup recordings the same way PT does, that's one feature I miss in Ableton sometimes. Who really cares what execs think? Your music stands on its own, especially in the case of the OP, who obviously doesn't have TDM and clearly doesn't need to impress execs or hip hop artists.;) |
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| Eric J |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Right, so you just said that LE wasn't much cop and that anyone serious would use HD, the OP I'm pretty sure is using LE, so my advice has been right all along: LE is not practical cubase/ableton/whatever is more appropriate.
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OK, I see what the problem is here, it is my fault. I should have been more clear. I have been referring to HD all this time, I just did not specify it when I was making my arguments. I wholeheartedly agree with you the LE is an inferior product compared to alternative DAW packages. Personally I don't want to use anything that has the words "Limited Edition" in the product title.
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
RE hardware
1/ you have to upgrade your pro tools hardware, so you DO have to upgrade, did you read Lolo? This winds up costing even more
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Correct, I was only referring to the upgrading of the host PC, not the ProTools Hardware which is MUCH more expensive.
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
2/ I don't have any stability problems on my PC, and thats using ableton. Its really not an issue, ASIO drivers are rock solid and used by more people than Digi drivers, so that might even be an advantage.
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Agreed, ASIO drivers are very solid, as are Core Audio drivers. If one knows what they are doing then you shouldn't have any stability problems with hardware and software from different manufacturers, as long as the manufacturers make quality hardware and software.
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
And yes I do agree with you that you CAN use it to make EDM, but I suppose I'm just saying that there are better optionss. A resourceful person can make something out of anything really.
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Agreed here as well, tools are just that: tools. Its the talent of the artists that makes the music.
It seems like we were not as far apart in opinion as I once thought. I apologize for not being clearer with my arguments. Hope there are no hard feelings. :) |
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| Lolo |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I don't think there are any sequencers that allow plugins to be applied to regions only, etc. etc., serious track counts upwards of 200 depnding on system.
Also, people who don't know (execs, some hip hop artists etc.) expect to see pro tools for them to recognise it as a bona fide studio - it's the stupidest thing but all too true. |
Different fx to regions: You mean offline editing? Logic Studio does that, Cubase does that, too. Logic users select the bundled soundtrack pro as their external editor, and can even copy paste their plug-in settings between the two, just like Audiosuite does. Or wasn't it what you were talking about?
Track counts: Well I haven't gone deeply into it, but with a logic node you get basically the same effect on your main computer as with dsp cards. One simple thing scares me off with Digi: the price for 200+ track counts. ;-)
But I definitely understand what you mean. Let's forget about my Digi nightmare, it all belongs to the past and the future looks bright. |
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