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Using a master clock such as Big Ben (pg. 2)
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
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Much better explaination than mine:p
Just to clarify alanzo, it has nothing to do with midi, it has to do with digital audio signals.
Out of curiousity RANN, do you still need to sync signals which are travelling in the analogue domain from one unit to another? IE, is it advantageous to sync a virus TI to your soundcard if using the analogue outs? I don't hear about people doing this much. I know it would be if using optical digital outs...
Myles, the signal coming out from the soundcard doesn't need to be synced unless its being printed into another system, in which case it needs to be synced to that system.
Units like a really nice converter like a lavry feeding a firewire audio interface like an RME would need to be synced to the same clock signal. If you then had a couple of other mic pre amps with converters in them, it would be very neccesary to have them all synced to the same clock. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Much better explaination than mine:p
Just to clarify alanzo, it has nothing to do with midi, it has to do with digital audio signals.
Out of curiousity RANN, do you still need to sync signals which are travelling in the analogue domain from one unit to another? IE, is it advantageous to sync a virus TI to your soundcard if using the analogue outs? I don't hear about people doing this much. I know it would be if using optical digital outs...
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If it's just going from say a synth to a soundcard, then my take on it is NO. Once you're at the point where the signal is analogue (and in this case coming from a stand alone unit), sync accuracy will only affect the point of capture (i.e. the soundcard itself) but the advantage of using a soundcard with a bigben, opposed to a soundcard's internal clocking would probably be so minimal you wouldn't be able to tell the difference on an A/B comparison.
This would be especially so if the soundcard is anything like even a MOTU or upwards (because the clocks are OK), but then again below that quality level the converters probably won't let you hear the difference anyway so basically there would be little to no point getting a bigben for just recording some outboard synths in to a soundcard.
It also wouldn't help with spdif outputs on synths either as I recall that spdif transmits it's own clock reference with the digtal audio data combined, and usually on prosumer equipment you can't just use only the audio data from spdif signal and use the clock from a separate master, because the you have to set the slave and master to transmit, and that dictates the clock source. The only way is if the two units had a separate word clock I/O's and spdif's onboard, and that the master clock source is configurable, such as with PTHD digi 96/192 interfaces, but then why you would use spdif as opposed to AES EBU...I can't think of the reason?
Also, spdif on toslik(optical) suffers from more jitter (due to it's tx/rx method) than RCA/coax spdif, but that suffers from RFI which can also screw the signal and cause jitter.
Oh, and there's no point thinking about doing it by a form of midi sync such as MTC or MMC as they just aren't accurate enough.
Simply put in a single DAW system, going from outboard gear to audio interface there are little to no advantages of using a master clock unit.
| quote: | Originally posted by kitphillips
Units like a really nice converter like a lavry feeding a firewire audio interface like an RME would need to be synced to the same clock signal. If you then had a couple of other mic pre amps with converters in them, it would be very neccesary to have them all synced to the same clock. |
Most definitely - but the RME clocks are pretty good and I would even consider setting that as the master in that setup. However if there were any more units than that, the bigben would be the way to go. This is because the daisy chaining of word clock signals can lead to innacuracy and jitter and a lot of the lavry units (or similar) don;t even have a clock out, just a clock in so they can be slaved to, therefore you'd want a unit that can transmit multiple copies of the same wordclock simultaneously. |
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| kitphillips |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
If it's just going from say a synth to a soundcard, then my take on it is NO. Once you're at the point where the signal is analogue (and in this case coming from a stand alone unit), sync accuracy will only affect the point of capture (i.e. the soundcard itself) but the advantage of using a soundcard with a bigben, opposed to a soundcard's internal clocking would probably be so minimal you wouldn't be able to tell the difference on an A/B comparison.
This would be especially so if the soundcard is anything like even a MOTU or upwards (because the clocks are OK), but then again below that quality level the converters probably won't let you hear the difference anyway so basically there would be little to no point getting a bigben for just recording some outboard synths in to a soundcard. |
I thought it was less a matter of how good the clock was and more a matter of the fact that the clocks (which we will assume are perfect) are out of phase with each other? Thats why I figure, if the ouput on the virus is sampling out of phase with the input on the RME say, then theoretically, no matter whether its going over copper analogue cable, or digital of some kind, they need to be synced. But probably somethign like the interpolation algorithm comes into it to smooth the samples out to form a continuous waveform..?
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
It also wouldn't help with spdif outputs on synths either as I recall that spdif transmits it's own clock reference with the digtal audio data combined, and usually on prosumer equipment you can't just use only the audio data from spdif signal and use the clock from a separate master, because the you have to set the slave and master to transmit, and that dictates the clock source. The only way is if the two units had a separate word clock I/O's and spdif's onboard, and that the master clock source is configurable, such as with PTHD digi 96/192 interfaces, but then why you would use spdif as opposed to AES EBU...I can't think of the reason?
Also, spdif on toslik(optical) suffers from more jitter (due to it's tx/rx method) than RCA/coax spdif, but that suffers from RFI which can also screw the signal and cause jitter.
Oh, and there's no point thinking about doing it by a form of midi sync such as MTC or MMC as they just aren't accurate enough.
Simply put in a single DAW system, going from outboard gear to audio interface there are little to no advantages of using a master clock unit. |
OK, so its best to only use it when using AES EBU format then? |
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| CReddick |
I have to jump in on this thread...
There is A LOT of misinformation here, but I'm not going to reply through to each point.
The top of the line products for this category are here:
http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/products_iso.html
The bottom line is that EVERYONE regardless of setup can experience the benefits of these clocks. When working with a DAW, the digital audio must be converted to analog for you to be able to hear it. ignoring all the upstream benefits, applying a hardware controlled clock to that DAC results in unmeasurable benefits.
The stereo field widens, mono signals tighten up into the middle, and the Z-plane depth of mixes increases dramatically.
You won't believe me until you hear it for yourself. |
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| cryophonik |
So, now for the $64K question:
Can someone post a hi-res .wav sample clip in which a clock was used and the same clip sans clock so we can hear these differences in coloration, stereo width, etc.?
And, the $100K question:
Post the same clip in mp3 format so we can hear the differences that the majority of our audiences will likely hear?
Please note: it's not that I'm doubting the believers - it's just that I've never had an opportunity to compare for myself and I (and probably many others) want to hear for ourselves if we think the ends justify the means (and cost). |
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| alanzo |
| I don't think this would be possible as clocks are (I believe) mostly on the end of the chain ... like a DAC. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by alanzo
I don't think this would be possible as clocks are (I believe) mostly on the end of the chain ... like a DAC. |
Good point, but if they're also controlling the incoming (i.e., recorded) audio, such as synths, preamps, etc., then there should be an audible difference, if the claims being made here are correct and I'm understanding them correctly (???)
This is relevant to me because I (and Alan) record a lot of external hardware synths and I run my channel strip through the digital outputs (slave clock) and into the digital inputs of my MOTU 828mkII (master clock). |
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| DJ RANN |
I'm not buying it. I think on single soundcard/interface DAW' especially making EDM, on probably less than pro speakers (focal Twins, Gene 8050, Questeds, etc., at most of the time 44.1k, the benefits are minimal to completely undetectable and sure as hell not worth the $1000+ for either a bigben or Antelope.
Yes, in theory, you will get a benefit from clocking, because the less jitter, the more accurate the signal and it can increase extension, clarity and even image, but coming out of a synth to go in to your less than Pro interface (motu, m audio, entry level Apogee), so you can make some trance? come on, you don't need a ing master clock probably costing a more than your speakers or audio interface.
I refuse to believe on a single interface "prosumer" system that is mainly dealing with just playback, that a clock of any sort will make a big enough difference to warrant that money - it would be far better spent elsewhere in the home studio. I think it's all marketing BS and if you look at the info from Apogee or Ant, they are very careful to not mention any benefits relating to single interface systems - I think that's because they would have too many returns from people who bought thinking they were going to have a better system from just buying a master clock.
I do however know (first hand) that in any multiple interface systems or transfer systems or even using a single PTHD 96/192 with other pro equipment, I would only use a master clock such as the Bigben or the Antelope and not the internal, unless I absolutely had to.
First impressions from engineers I know is that the antelope are a little superior to the bigben in terms of the increase in sonic performance, but some of the features of the bigben such as the auto-sensing terminations make it the choice a no brainer over the antelope for a lot of pro studio applications/sessions. When you've got four PT HD3 systems, a 200+ channel digital desk, a digital patch bay system and live session going on, that feature is the difference between the session happening today and you scrabbling around the back of racks for the next couple of hours chasing cables.
Also, this is probably one of the single most subjective areas in terms of technical audio discussion that are going to come up on TA - everyone I know who has an opinion on this subject, explains their findings in incredibly esoteric and broadly undefined language. |
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| CReddick |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
So, now for the $64K question:
Can someone post a hi-res .wav sample clip in which a clock was used and the same clip sans clock so we can hear these differences in coloration, stereo width, etc? |
This wouldn't work because you'd be playing the clip back with your clock source.
Like most have said already, this thread is pointless in a forum like this one. TA producers are not spending $2-6k on a clock for their studios. Thats why you don't see Antelope marketing towards the project studio owners / laptop producers. The fact that industry guys like Jeff Zook and Roger Nichols are dumping these units into all their facilities should say something if you're really serious about mixing. |
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| CReddick |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
So, now for the $64K question:
Can someone post a hi-res .wav sample clip in which a clock was used and the same clip sans clock so we can hear these differences in coloration, stereo width, etc.?
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This wouldn't work because you'd be playing the clip back with your clock source.
Like most have said already, this thread is pointless in a forum like this one. TA producers are not spending $2-6k on a clock for their studios. Thats why you don't see Antelope marketing towards the project studio owners / laptop producers. The fact that industry guys like Jeff Zook, Roger Nichols, and Howie Weinberg (mastering) are dumping these units into all their facilities should say something if you're really serious about mixing.
Howie makes a short vid that is pretty down to earth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT36uditN78 |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by CReddick
This wouldn't work because you'd be playing the clip back with your clock source.
Like most have said already, this thread is pointless in a forum like this one. TA producers are not spending $2-6k on a clock for their studios. Thats why you don't see Antelope marketing towards the project studio owners / laptop producers. The fact that industry guys like Jeff Zook, Roger Nichols, and Howie Weinberg (mastering) are dumping these units into all their facilities should say something if you're really serious about mixing.
Howie makes a short vid that is pretty down to earth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT36uditN78 |
This is true but it would work for just a recording (say a nice vocal using a good mic) as the clock would improve the capture of it, but you're right in that only half the benefit would be realized due to not having the same clock to playback.
The guys you mentioned also all make money (and a fair bit at that) from the quality of their studios so dropping several grand on clocks is money well spent for them (especially because of the size of systems they have as mentioned before) but it would be total overkill for a project studio or bedroom EDM producer.
I reckon that vid also smells very much like paid promotion (for a free clock or two) - who stands in their studio being filmed, shows their gold and platinum records and then starts discussing the quality of their master cock? Hmmmmmmmmm.
Cryo - Before you go out and buy a master clock, I remember something about motu 828's and limitations with master clocks. I *think* there is some kind of problem when using more than one 828 interface and using a master clock source. AFAIK, the 828 will not allow you to use an external lock source to feed the master 828 when you have another slaved to it. MOTU might have fixed this in later generations (mk3?) but I do know this was an issue with the Mk1 and therfore you had to make the clock the master for both....which was fine apart from the fact your sequencer would see them as two separate interfaces and not a continuation or sequential channels - it causes all sorts of hell in protools, but don't know how it would affect other sequencers?
Check with motu first that there are no known issue with using a master clock before buying one. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Cryo - Before you go out and buy a master clock, I remember something about motu 828's and limitations with master clocks. I *think* there is some kind of problem when using more than one 828 interface and using a master clock source. AFAIK, the 828 will not allow you to use an external lock source to feed the master 828 when you have another slaved to it. MOTU might have fixed this in later generations (mk3?) but I do know this was an issue with the Mk1 and therfore you had to make the clock the master for both....which was fine apart from the fact your sequencer would see them as two separate interfaces and not a continuation or sequential channels - it causes all sorts of hell in protools, but don't know how it would affect other sequencers?
Check with motu first that there are no known issue with using a master clock before buying one. |
Oh no, I have absolutely NO plans of buying an external clock and I already run my MOTU as the master, quite happily I might add. ;) I was just interested in hearing for myself if, and how much, there is an audible difference in recordings made with/without a Big Ben et al. But, your point is very well taken! |
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