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Can you really "learn" to write *great* music just by working hard at it? (pg. 5)
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by noicuc
Depends on what "Great" music really is.
If your talking about classical , hell no. You really got to do be born with it.
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No offense, but...no. Being "born with it", if true, would not be limited to one specific time period spanning several centuries. Furthermore, classical is music is broadly defined as music ranging from the beginning of time to some undefined period in history and is a relative concept. In other words, the music of our generation will be considered "classical music" at some point in the future. By your reasoning, we will have "been born with it" in the eyes of future generations. That just doesn't make sense. If you were referring to the "Classical Period" which lasted only about 70 years (mid 1700s to early 1800s), well then you're leaving out many of the great masters of the Renaissance, Baroque, Romantic, etc. periods. That also makes no sense.
I won't waste my evening writing a thesis on the learning process that many of the great composers had to endure to achieve immortal status because you can look that up as easily as anybody and see for yourself that all "classical" composers weren't "born with it" and that they had to work much harder than most of us do today because they didn't have the technological resources that we have. But, I will add this: when you talk about classical composers, you're not just talking about the greats, you're also talking about the less-than-greats, the mediocres, and the horrible majority that you've never even heard of. For every Bach, Beethoven, Strauss, Mozart, and Stravinsky, there were literally tens of thousands of composers on the left side of the bell-shaped talent curve. They were "classical" composers as much as the greats were, but they obviously weren't "born with it" either.
edited for clarity and niceness - I was in a cranky mood last night! |
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| cryophonik |
Not to keep beating this dead horse, but that earlier comment regarding classical music got thinking back to my classical music studies in college so I decided to add a few more comments.
First of all, with regard to the notion of being born with it, all one needs to do is consider the style of music that any given great composer is renowned for to see that it's a matter of nurture, not nature. You have to understand that there is no universal model of musical perfection and that, to the contrary, music that is considered "great" vastly differs between cultures and time periods. Take any great classical western composer (e.g., Beethoven) for example. If he was truly great simply because he was born with some innate god-given ability, then why didn't he pop out of the womb with the ability to create compositions that would have been considered great masterpieces in India at that time, or compositions based on scales of the far East? He certainly wasn't afraid of breaking convention and was actually quite well-known for doing so, yet his compositions were still based on the same scales and modes used throughout western civilation during his time. Why? Simple - he was acclamated to writing in the same heptatonic (and to a lesser extent, pentatonic) scales that have been the mainstay throughout western music for centuries, because they sound "natural" in that culture. That is a result of behavioral modification due to constant exposure and teaching, not something that you are born with. If it was, then Asian music, Indian music, African, music, etc. would not differ from each other as much as they do.
Now, while I'm talking about Beethoven, another thing to consider is that he didn't start playing an instrument until he was around 5 or 6 IIRC. His father and grandfather were both excellent musicians and had him training relentlessly from morning until night. For several years, his father tried to sculpt him into the same prodigal musician that Mozart was, but he didn't get past mediocrity until later in life. In his teens, he moved to Vienna to study music under the greatest musicians and composers of that time, including Haydn. It wasn't until after that, and the death of his mother, that he began composing his great works. He was pretty much renowned for having labored over every single note and was rumored to spend months obsessing over one note. We're talking about a guy who devoted his life to his art and learned by working his tail off day and night and studying under the greatest composers of his time, but didn't start achieving greatness until he was around 20 years old. Guess what, folks? That's the story of the most well-known and arguably greatest composer in western civilization, and he wasn't born with it. |
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| Stephen Wiley |
| Intelligence is a huge factor in my opinion as well as experience. I think somebody who has listened to Trance for 10 years is going to have a lot more passion and innovation for music than somebody who has listened to it for 2 years. Creativity in its purest form cannot be taught, however it can evolve over time. I believe every person has the ability (if they try hard enough) to write tracks that have soul to them. The problem is they may not have soul to anyone else. There is no black or white answer for this question. |
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| Microlab |
| I agree everything can be learned and tamed, however dificult it would be. But only limited people are born to be next big thing. So the talent is not the last what an artist should possess. There're millions of artists out there but only some of them sound really tight. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
Some encouragement, sort of:
| quote: | | Scholars have also demolished the old idea that Mozart was an idiot savant, transcribing the music that played in his brain. Instead, he seems to have refined his ideas to an almost manic degree. Examination of Mozart’s surviving sketches and drafts—Constanze threw many sketches away—reveals that the composer sometimes began a piece, set it aside, and resumed it months or years later; rewrote troubling sections several times in a row; started movements from scratch when a first attempt failed to satisfy; and waited to finish an aria until a singer had tried out the opening. Ulrich Konrad calls these stockpiles of material “departure points”—“a delineation of intellectual places to which Mozart could return as necessary.” In other words, the music in Mozart’s mind may have been like a huge map of half-explored territories; in a way, he was writing all his works all the time. The new image of him as a kind of improvising perfectionist is even more formidable than the previous one of God’s stenographer. Ambitious parents who are currently playing the “Baby Mozart” video for their toddlers may be disappointed to learn that Mozart became Mozart by working furiously hard, and, if Constanze was right, by working himself to death. |
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/20...e?currentPage=3
:D |
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| palm |
| some sort of vision is the most important thing imo. |
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| Elendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
I think the notion that people are "born with it" is complete BS. Allow me to blow my own horn (no pun intended) for a moment. I've been a musician since I could talk, went to college on a music scholarship and got a degree in Music Theory/Composition, and made a very successful career as a performer and session player for about 18 years of my life, but it didn't come easy. I had to practice my a$$ off and study the hell out of music theory to make all that happen. One thing that would piss me off more than just about anything was people saying things like "oh, you were born with such great talent", or "you're so gifted". That's complete BS and makes it seem like I didn't have to lift a finger to become an accomplished musician. Worse yet, I hear other people use "I guess I wasn't born with it" as an excuse for their dissatisfaction with their musical abilities, when the simple truth is obvious: they're just not working at it as hard as they need to.
Now, that said, I do believe that the ability to become a successful musician is something that is largely nurtured from an early age. Infants and children are the most highly influential life stage and that is the period in which we all learn lessons, values, and motor skills that play a hugely important role in our technical, cognitive, and creative abilities later in life. As a father, I see it in my 19-month old son on a daily basis. I give him pretty much free roam (supervised, of course) of the studio and he is free to strum guitars, bang on the piano and synths, turn knobs on preamps, sing into the microphone, etc. There is music playing constantly in our home and cars, and we buy him music toys regularly (bongos, drums, keyboard, etc.) The teachers at his daycare are amazed at his musical abilities. There's no doubt in my mind that he is going to be a far better musician than I could ever hope to be, simply because he started years ahead of me and has access to musical resources that I was still dreaming of when I was in my twenties. But, he wasn't born with it. He is learning the same way we all did. And, yes, he practices:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5DajzJa89w
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It's a beautiful thing eh? I give my son about 3 hours a day of supervised play on my studio gear, my turntables, etc. Music is probably the happiest part of his day - it's incredible to watch him filter up/down while bopping along perfectly to the beat. Things I wish I had of been exposed to even in my teens, he's already getting - so we'll see what happens when he gets older!
As for born with it or whether it can be learned: I'm not sure yet. I would assume that, like physical traits, music skill will vary from person to person, regardless of how much work is put into it. |
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| Low Profile |
My 2 cent:
"Being born with it", what does it mean, really? It does not mean you are born with the knowledge of how to operate a synthesizer, or tune a compressor just right, it means you have a burning interest in music and you have ideas, loads of ideas that you want to let others hear.
Someone said the words "If you don't have anything interesting to say, then don't say anything at all.". If you're trying to make music but you don't have any concepts to produce into reality, then why the are you trying to make music in the first place?! Don't force it, that just does not work. So, being "born with it" is nothing more than the willpower and imagination to write the music.
Lastly, some people are tonedeaf, they can't tell you if something sounds good or bad, can't tell you if a melody is in key or off tune. I've had this ability since I was 4 and started playing piano, and 90% of people have it. most people can tell the difference between major and minor, once they've learned what the concepts are. The rest usually doesn't like music, so this probably doesn't apply to you :) If you do love music and define yourself as tonedeaf, please contact me as this is an psychological interest to me :P
Now; you have loads of ideas that you want to make reality, now you need some method of doing that. You can whistle your song, or sing, or bang a beat on the table, but another option is to use electronic instruments. You need to learn how to operate them, and the better you are, the closer you can get to that original idea in your head. Once you have complete mastery over you equipment there is no longer a barrier between your brain and the real word, and it is now up to your imagination to make it sound good. Have good idead; make good music! Have bad ideas and your music will suck. The problem is that most people don't have enough equipment skill but do have good ideas and thus become frustrated.
Yeah, that was my 2 cent :) |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Low Profile
"Being born with it"... means you have a burning interest in music and you have ideas, loads of ideas that you want to let others hear. |
Yeah, not exactly. Most kids have a burning interest in becoming professional athletes but find out pretty early on that they just don't have what it takes to get there.
Trouble with solo hobbies like producing is that you don't really get that reality check. |
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| Elendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by hundred
lsd.
:D |
Wooooord. |
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| Subtle |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Yeah, not exactly. Most kids have a burning interest in becoming professional athletes but find out pretty early on that they just don't have what it takes to get there.
Trouble with solo hobbies like producing is that you don't really get that reality check. |
Yeah, mostly because producing music doesnt require any physical attributes. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subtle
Yeah, mostly because producing music doesnt require any physical attributes. |
It requires mental attributes. Most of those kids won't grow up to be internet millionaires either. Or rocket scientists. There aren't as many people aspiring to those careers so it's not as interesting to talk about, but the idea is the same. |
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