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The separation of bank and state
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| atbell |
So in theory church and state are two seperate entities, but what about the separation of banking and governance?
Can economics and politics be separated? Should they be?
This is probably what people are really driving toward now that 'bank nationalization' is being used to describe possible solutions to the current problems. |
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| Shakka |
| Well, the Federal Reserve is technically independent of the Federal Government. They may get pressure from elected officials, but their actions are not guided by congressional agendas, nor do they require congressional approval for their actions (with some minor exceptions related to the TARP). Not sure how fiscal policy gets baked into your thought process, but with "power of the purse" and the "power to tax", how does this separation work with the body of Congress? It would be nice if they simply had a budget to work with and when the funds ran out they were SOL, but it doesn't seem to work that way. Than again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the original question. |
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| Capitalizt |
| Who made the quote in your sig Shakka? I like it ;) |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by atbell
Can economics and politics be separated? Should they be?
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No. Yes. :)
I don't think we are ever going to have separation as long as legal tender laws are in place. All I'd like to see is a legalization of competition. Right now it is illegal to offer alternatives to the US dollar as forms of payment. If we legalize competition, it will be a bit ugly and chaotic for a while, but eventually some private currency standard would likely spring up. The most popular, convenient, and trusted forms of currency will eventually rise to the top and become the new standard. If competition had been legalized ten years ago, who knows what we might have today? We could have things like like E-commerce credits, Paypal Dollars, Google money, shopping cards redeemable at any time by mail for gold and silver..or even a universal private currency created by a few banks that is backed by a basket of commodities.. The dollar will always be around, but those who have no faith in it should have the option to conduct business with other free market alternatives that hold their value better. Right now, people don't have that choice. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Who made the quote in your sig Shakka? I like it ;) |
Some guy named Adrian Rogers who I believe was a baptist minister or something. I agree with that particular quote and think it speaks volumes. However, I don't think I necessarily agree with many/any of his other positions/beliefs. I just like the quote. |
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| Krypton |
| Religion is not regulated by the state. The economy must be regulated by the state and so it is not advisable to separate politics and economics, lest we have laissez-faire capitalists taking advantage of the working class every chance they get. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
No. Yes. :)
I don't think we are ever going to have separation as long as legal tender laws are in place. All I'd like to see is a legalization of competition. Right now it is illegal to offer alternatives to the US dollar as forms of payment. If we legalize competition, it will be a bit ugly and chaotic for a while, but eventually some private currency standard would likely spring up. The most popular, convenient, and trusted forms of currency will eventually rise to the top and become the new standard. If competition had been legalized ten years ago, who knows what we might have today? We could have things like like E-commerce credits, Paypal Dollars, Google money, shopping cards redeemable at any time by mail for gold and silver..or even a universal private currency created by a few banks that is backed by a basket of commodities.. The dollar will always be around, but those who have no faith in it should have the option to conduct business with other free market alternatives that hold their value better. Right now, people don't have that choice. |
What a funny little part of reality island you live on. The whole concept of different currencies was tried in your country before, and was a complete disaster. Whats the point of having a nation if that nation has a bajillion different currencies? How on earth would you ensure that you could use your google dollars wherever you wanted? Oh that's right, you couldn't. so the populace would have to carry all kinds of different funny monies as they go from one shop to the next, and all shops would have to have multiple prices for each currency they accept. Talk about an absolute cluster.
Your ideas get nuttier by the day :haha: |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Your ideas get nuttier by the day :haha: |
Yep, freedom is a nutty concept to some people. ;)
If you have faith in your government's ability to maintain a sound currency, you should have nothing to fear from a little competition. Legalize it and let the people decide. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Yep, freedom is a nutty concept to some people. ;)
If you have faith in your government's ability to maintain a sound currency, you have nothing to fear from a little competition. Legalize it and let the people decide. |
i love the way you throw around 'freedom' willy-nilly as if it means something. your country is far freer with a stable mono currency than any alternative notion you have brewing.
like i said, its been tried and it failed. whats with you and your obsession with antiquated ideology? :conf: |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Yep, freedom is a nutty concept to some people. ;)
If you have faith in your government's ability to maintain a sound currency, you should have nothing to fear from a little competition. Legalize it and let the people decide. |
americans can accept euros, yuan, yen, or any other currency produced legally by another nation. The government doesn't prohibit a vendor from accepting euros or any other currency. How is that not competition? If that doesn't work, people are free to exchange sea shells for milk, butter, or whatever else they need. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
No. Yes. :)
I don't think we are ever going to have separation as long as legal tender laws are in place. All I'd like to see is a legalization of competition. Right now it is illegal to offer alternatives to the US dollar as forms of payment. If we legalize competition, it will be a bit ugly and chaotic for a while, but eventually some private currency standard would likely spring up. The most popular, convenient, and trusted forms of currency will eventually rise to the top and become the new standard. If competition had been legalized ten years ago, who knows what we might have today? We could have things like like E-commerce credits, Paypal Dollars, Google money, shopping cards redeemable at any time by mail for gold and silver..or even a universal private currency created by a few banks that is backed by a basket of commodities.. The dollar will always be around, but those who have no faith in it should have the option to conduct business with other free market alternatives that hold their value better. Right now, people don't have that choice. |
The reason we have one currency is because having a bunch of currencies is just stifling to the economy. Imagine going to a store, and they only take 'liberty dollars'. Well, now you have to exchange whatever you have for that liberty dollar. Then you want to buy something off amazon. Well, they only take amazon dollars, so now you must exchange for that. The immense difficulties of having multiple currencies within a single economy was made well apparent in the first half of our country's history. Each state had its own currency. That proves to be a collosal failure. Do you know how hard it would be to stop counterfeiters?
I know you'r all for economic freedom, but really, you'r just asking for anarchy.. |
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| Capitalizt |
Pk, It has been tried? Orly? Are you talking about the continental dollar or some of the currencies printed by each side in the civil war? The country was in a f*cked up situation there buddy..not a good example. We are a relatively stable nation now and I don't see the harm in allowing a free market to develop. If people can't use a particular currency where they would like, they obviously will choose not to use it, so it will sink and the dollar will remain king. Right now the dollar is king by order of our federal overlords.. I think a little competition bring some monetary sanity back to Washington and force them to get their together. You lefties are strongly against monopolies right? Why are you objecting to breaking up the ultimate monopoly over money? :)
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I know you'r all for economic freedom, but really, you'r just asking for anarchy.. |
Yes yes..like I said, it would be messy..but not anarchy. It is not in the interest of merchants to demand currency that nobody has. They would be punished by the market and quickly go out of business.. The situation would be resolved one way or another. A private standard would either develop or it wouldn't. I personally think one or two strong currencies rise to the top. Give people the freedom to choose and let them face the consequences of their actions. Just legalize the right to choose.
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
americans can accept euros, yuan, yen, or any other currency produced legally by another nation. The government doesn't prohibit a vendor from accepting euros or any other currency. How is that not competition? If that doesn't work, people are free to exchange sea shells for milk, butter, or whatever else they need. |
So we can reject one piece of devalued government paper in favor of another devalued piece of government paper? Yay! :) The problem is that government has many laws against private mints and legal tender laws prevent people from rejecting fiat bills. If people were free to reject debased government currency and instead demand sound money, sound money will gradually return to use in society. Competition would allow participants to choose a currency that suits their needs, rather than the needs of the government. I think the prospect of Americans turning away from the dollar towards alternate currencies would provide the necessary impetus to the US government to regain control of the dollar and halt its downward spiral. Right now they have no incentive to stop printing us into oblivion. |
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