Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
brave and gentle and wise :)
:p Butsekz?
astroboy
quote:
Originally posted by Slylee
prison is counterproductive. and i'm talking about like the hard core prisons that carry murderers and rapists who are doing 15-life. just ing kill them and let's move on. 'oh it costs money to kill them, bla bla bla'. no. shoot them in the head outside in the prison yard. how much does a bullet and a gun cost? :stongue:
What about cases like that of Ronald Cotton. The guy was convicted of rape and ended up actually serving 10.5 years of a life sentence based on the eyewitness testimony of his supposed victim before it turned out she was completely wrong and the real perpetrator was found. The guy lost 10 years of his life because of the faults inherent in the justice system. He ended up getting out because of luck, determination, and some level of intelligence. There are doubtless other cases where people end up serving life sentences because they aren't strong, or educated or lucky enough to fight their false conviction.
We know this is inevitable but it's the price we pay for order. People are wrongly convicted of serious crimes on a regular basis. And there is no reason to believe that all of those cases are discovered and the prisoner released. Under your system people like Ronald Cotton would be put to death. You're essentially calling for the state to knowingly kill innocent people. I don't know what kind of benefit could justify that price.
Omega_M
quote:
Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Denying someone their freedom, keeping them locked away like an animal with no chance of escape is far more of a punishment
That is what you think. The prisoners may also feel the same thing, but only in the beginning of their incarceration period. As they adjust to the new environment, they no longer mourn the loss of their freedom.
There is a very good lecture on the topic of "happiness" given by a social scientist on TED.com. The guy talks about how human beings adjust themselves to new circumstances, however unpleasant, and become happy again. You may think that prisoners or people with disabilities remain unhappy for life. But surprisingly that's not the case at all. Nor on the flip side, does a person who's won a multi- million dollar lottery remains happy for ever. I couldn't find that video, but I did find a paper that says the same thing.
When the state punishes a criminal, it purposely inflicts suffering on one of its citizens. If that act is to be justified, limits must be set on the amount and type of suffering that may be imposed. A justification therefore requires an understanding of the ways in which punishment actually inflicts suffering on those punished. How and to what extent do fines and incarceration negatively affect happiness or well-being? The answers might seem obvious, but as we have indicated in the context of civil settlement, 2 recent empirical work in behavioral psychology suggests otherwise.
This empirical work reveals that people adapt to monetary fines far better than they expect. Paying a fine initially decreases an offender’s level of happiness, but that level rebounds quickly toward its initial state. Even large fines have only minor effects on the wellbeing of those who receive them, because people adjust quite easily to their new financial circumstances. Adaptation thus reduces heavily the punitive consequence of a fine.
Prison has a more complicated effect on happiness. On the one hand, it is similar to a fine in that people adapt well to being in prison. Their happiness drops at the beginning and they expect it to remain low, but it rebounds impressively as they adjust to their new surroundings. On the other hand, virtually any period of incarceration, no matter how brief, has consequences that negatively affect prisoners’ lives in ways that resist adaptation, even after they have been released. Prisoners are often abandoned by their spouses and friends, face difficulty finding and keeping employment, and must grapple with incurable diseases contracted during their incarceration. Thus, living in prison itself becomes less oppressive with time, but the effects of having been in prison tend to linger and to diminish happiness indefinitely.
The undesirable effects of incarceration are besides the point ofcourse, if we are strictly concerned with the effects of loss of freedom.
Slylee
quote:
Originally posted by astroboy
What about cases like that of Ronald Cotton. The guy was convicted of rape and ended up actually serving 10.5 years of a life sentence based on the eyewitness testimony of his supposed victim before it turned out she was completely wrong and the real perpetrator was found. The guy lost 10 years of his life because of the faults inherent in the justice system. He ended up getting out because of luck, determination, and some level of intelligence. There are doubtless other cases where people end up serving life sentences because they aren't strong, or educated or lucky enough to fight their false conviction.
We know this is inevitable but it's the price we pay for order. People are wrongly convicted of serious crimes on a regular basis. And there is no reason to believe that all of those cases are discovered and the prisoner released. Under your system people like Ronald Cotton would be put to death. You're essentially calling for the state to knowingly kill innocent people. I don't know what kind of benefit could justify that price.
yea well there are just as many guilty pieces of who get off every day too because of loopholes in the system. the system is ed and abused/manipulated on a daily basis. it's just wrong. everything needs to be re-written to reflect modern society.
Lunar Phase 7
quote:
Originally posted by R.j.
by the way, Ladytron is such an awesome group: destroy everything you touch na na na na plaaaygirl, why are you sleeping in tomorrow's world, hey playgirl
May I also recommend this?
bananas
i love that song, but the video is somehow scary to me :[[
Joss Weatherby
quote:
Originally posted by Omega_M
That is what you think. The prisoners may also feel the same thing, but only in the beginning of their incarceration period. As they adjust to the new environment, they no longer mourn the loss of their freedom.
There is a very good lecture on the topic of "happiness" given by a social scientist on TED.com. The guy talks about how human beings adjust themselves to new circumstances, however unpleasant, and become happy again. You may think that prisoners or people with disabilities remain unhappy for life. But surprisingly that's not the case at all. Nor on the flip side, does a person who's won a multi- million dollar lottery remains happy for ever. I couldn't find that video, but I did find a paper that says the same thing.
The undesirable effects of incarceration are besides the point ofcourse, if we are strictly concerned with the effects of loss of freedom.
And death is any less of a punishment? That argument needs a whole other thread... Death to me is far more desirable than not being able to see my friends and family or live any sort of normal life again. I'd wish for death in that circumstance.
Who cares if they adapt to it, they have adapted to a hellish life and they are never going to be part of society again.
Omega_M
quote:
Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Death to me is far more desirable than not being able to see my friends and family or live any sort of normal life again. I'd wish for death in that circumstance.
Who cares if they adapt to it, they have adapted to a hellish life and they are never going to be part of society again.
Why would you want to die when you can "manufacture" happiness in whatever circumstances you find yourself in ? Once in jail when seeing their family is not an option, people don't fret over it and remain unhappy forever. Their brain manufactures its own "synthetic happiness" under these circumstances and they are truly just as happy as you think you are, when you meet your family. That's better than dying and having nothing left to ever feel any happiness at all, "synthetic" or "natural". You don't have to believe me. Watch this Harvard Psychologist's fascinating account of what makes us happy.
if the only evidence available to convict is eye witness testimony, the death penalty should not be able to be applied. Time and time again eye witness accounts are proven to be unreliable at best, and many scientific studies have shown this as well.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by Slylee
yea well there are just as many guilty pieces of who get off every day too because of loopholes in the system. the system is ed and abused/manipulated on a daily basis. it's just wrong. everything needs to be re-written to reflect modern society.
people that know how to fix society's ills don't sit round in their pyjamas all day.
RickyM
quote:
Originally posted by Slylee
yea well there are just as many guilty pieces of who get off every day too because of loopholes in the system. the system is ed and abused/manipulated on a daily basis. it's just wrong. everything needs to be re-written to reflect modern society.
So your solution to the problem is taking people out the back and shooting them?
Slylee
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
people that know how to fix society's ills don't sit round in their pyjamas all day.
